Unpopular Opinion

Anime would be nothing without art. This forum is here for artists to discuss the art show and artists' alley.
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DaveTCN
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Unpopular Opinion

Post by DaveTCN » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:30 pm

Please keep FCFS as it is.

I know I'm going to get lynched for this, but whatever. My tablemates are not all in agreement with me on this, so don't take this as an official position from our studio, just the guy who gets tasked with signing us up every year.

It was announced that the signups would be 11/4 at a time after noon. That means they could open anytime during a 12-hour period from noon to midnight. Nothing official ever said it would be close to noon. Just because other years were, that means nothing.

If you weren't willing and able to refresh the site for that 12-hour period, I'm sorry, maybe you just don't have the dedication to be in this alley. Have to work? You had plenty of notice to request time off. Have another con? Have a friend man your table.

Honestly, this is what I think really sets AB apart (aside from geographically) from other big cons. If you're at this con, you really, really want to be there. It's part of AB's identity at this point. We have terrifyingly huge lines for attendees just to enter. We have a grueling application process for artists. It's what AB is, and if you don't like it, there are hundreds of other cons out there.

I'll see you all at 6:00.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by saltedpumpkin » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:32 pm

you're a dumbass.

not everyone can afford to "just take off work" and sit chained to their computer for a 12 hour period.

"oh this works for me so everyone else should just be complacent."

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by cambrasine » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:33 pm

Being able to take 12 hours off from school, work, and other obligations is a LUXURY that few are entitled to. Not every can afford to take a day off, or some can't without losing their jobs. Some people are sick or have other disabilities that prevent them from being able to be up and constantly refreshing for twelve hours. Suggesting that people who cannot do this don't have 'dedication' and aren't deserving of being in the artist alley is beyond ignorant.
Anime Boston 2016
I will be at my table the Artist Alley all weekend and will cosplay as these characters on yet-to-be-determined days:

Miraculous Ladybug
Hiyori Iki
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???

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by Kaitexel » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:36 pm

This guy is so full of poopy.
We're being taken advantage of, and it's because of people like them that we keep getting the shaft.
"Well some people are willing to roll over" -that's the impression it gives AB.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by enchilada » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:40 pm

This isn't FCFS though, with shitty servers it's just a lottery with more stress for people who don't have the decadent luxury of staring at a computer for 12 hours.

My ideal situation is also FCFS, because I'm good at them, but not like this, never like this. Honestly something for everyone would be a set of tables for each method. FCFS to reward the fast & prepared ones, lottery for those who dont want the stress & have extenuating circumstances, and jury for artists the con likes.

I'd rather my friends and coworkers have less stress with a lottery or jury then ever breeze through a FCFS again if that what it takes.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by chibitakeshi » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:43 pm

It's an unpopular opinion because you're anti-improvement. Knowing that few people share your opinion should be your signal that it shouldn't be this way, not just because you think you're "tough enough" to be in the AB AA. So, you can take off work... okay. Do you also have an iron bladder? If you desperately had to pee before sign up's launched at an undisclosed time, I guess you just didn't want to be there badly enough. That's absurd. Please take this down and let us do the work to get a better system in place.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by Omi » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:43 pm

While your opinion is valid and respectable, you're absolutely correct that its not popular and/or shared by the majority of applicants.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by yuari » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:51 pm

What? This system is clearly not working for both artists and staff so we are looking for better solutions. This shows far more dedication to the convention than hitting F5 constantly in front of the computer for 12 hours.
It's not even FCFS that is the problem, but 1.the fact that their server simply cannot handle the traffic & this problem will only get worse from here, and 2. this undisclosed 12 hour window is not efficient in any way. Therefore It is not about willingness, it is about making the application process physically possible and efficient.
I'm glad you at least know your opinion is unpopular. I hope you could come to actually understand why.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by VikingSheep » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:00 pm

Just because something sets a convention apart from another doesn't make it a good thing. There's also another thing to consider. For those up to 12 hours that hundreds of us artists are desperately refreshing the Anime Boston site, that's up to 12 hours that non-artists trying to find information can't access it.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by DaveTCN » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:06 pm

saltedpumpkin wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:32 pm
you're a dumbass.
Thanks, you're great too.
cambrasine wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:33 pm
beyond ignorant
AB themselves say "undisclosed time... not before noon". Nowhere do they guarantee it will be less than twelve hours. They basically tell you on the info page that it may require being "up and constantly refreshing for twelve hours".
Kaitexel wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:36 pm
We're being taken advantage of
AB is giving up an opportunity to sell our product to a huge crowd, for a very small fee compared to other cons. If they massively increased the table price, sure, I'd start to see your point - albeit in a roundabout manner. But how exactly does the application process give them any kind of advantage over us?
enchilada wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:40 pm
Honestly something for everyone would be a set of tables for each method. FCFS to reward the fast & prepared ones, lottery for those who dont want the stress & have extenuating circumstances, and jury for artists the con likes.
That's something I could get behind, but logistically difficult (aside from Pro Row, which is already the juried third). Would there be separate waitlists? A month of Pro Row/Juried apps/selection/payment, 3-4 months of FCFS apps/selection/payment/waitlists until full, then another few months of the lotto process? It would be a hell of a lot of work for our volunteer staff. Most of the bigger cons at this point have paid employees. This idea has some legs and probably warrants further discussion, but not in the two hours we have left today, certainly.
chibitakeshi wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:43 pm
Do you also have an iron bladder?
No, but I do have a smartphone and a laptop.
chibitakeshi wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:43 pm
Please take this down and let us do the work to get a better system in place.
Um, no? Part of the work is intelligent discussion, which I see we're beginning to have in this thread. Progress!
VikingSheep wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:00 pm
undisclosed 12 hour window is not efficient in any way
VikingSheep wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:00 pm
up to 12 hours that non-artists trying to find information can't access it
I'm not at all opposed to shortening the window. It'll be very interesting to see how badly the site gets wanged in the six-hour window tonight. But I definitely agree that it's bad for AB, mid-day Saturday is probably a prime ticket-selling time. Maybe next year, some weekday night between 8:00 and 11:00?

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by Nemra » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:14 pm

Hi everyone,

We understand everyone's frustrations in this high stress day and we're all on edge, including staff because we also do not like when things don't run the way we intend them to but please keep it civil. you can disagree without resorting to cussing each other out.

This is a one time warning.
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Executive Advisor: '14 - '17
Social Media Coordinator: '15-'17
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Video Tech Coordinator: '11 - '15

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by logolepticlibra » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:16 pm

I agree with this entirely, and I know it is an unpopular opinion. But I come from the doubly unpopular and definitely biased point of view of someone who takes this seriously and has gotten in for four consecutive years.

The moment I know when the sign-up is, I request the day off of work. Any job that's okay with you skipping several weekends out of the year (if AA's are a thing you do for profit) shouldn't bat an eye at a single day off a month in advance. If you're scheduling appointments and plans for later in the day you clearly didn't understand that "after 12pm" doesn't mean "no later than 12:05". 6pm is still after 12pm as far as I can see.

This is a competition, guys. There aren't enough tables for everyone, and anyone who doesn't get one is going to blame the system no matter what the system is. Jurying a show this scale would be a massive undertaking and it would be IMMEDIATELY accosted with claims of favoritism. Lotteries can be rigged, and that would be what you'd hear. There's no pleasing anyone when there's only so many tables and an increasing amount of applicants every year, so why ask them to put all the effort into changing a system when so many people be just as unhappy (and just as convinced it was someone else's fault) no matter what?

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by cheesebites » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:16 pm

That's not very fair of you to ignore the core of the first two people's complaints in favor of giving them petty responses. They had legitimate counters to your argument. Not everyone has the luxury and ability to be at their computer all day, not everyone has more than one device with which to sign up, nor multiple people to help them sign up.
In any case, FCFS can work just not on the system that AB currently has established. Trying to keep it the same is only going to repeat everything that happened today, only worse as the years go on.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by Kino » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:18 pm

I think the main concern isn't a lack of dedication, but the way that a handful of applicants are throwing a wrench into the works for literally everyone.
The web admin just posted an update.
One of the root causes we found today were people opening multiple sessions to the form page, in an attempt to load it as soon as possible. Some people had 2 or 3 sessions connecting. But other had 10-30 sessions connecting. The server (any server) can only handle so many at once. That many per person was blocking other people from accessing the site.
This is my #1 reason for changing things, there should be some change to prevent this from happening.
Yes, the internet is the wild west and people can do what they want. But this is causing a major headache. The FCFS model is easy to take advantage of. Yes, even if they switched to something like eventbrite there still would be tons of refreshing, but at least the server won't break down.

I am not affected by the delay since I don't have work on the weekends but I still have sympathy for others.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by enchilada » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:22 pm

DaveTCN wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:06 pm
enchilada wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:40 pm
Honestly something for everyone would be a set of tables for each method. FCFS to reward the fast & prepared ones, lottery for those who dont want the stress & have extenuating circumstances, and jury for artists the con likes.
That's something I could get behind, but logistically difficult (aside from Pro Row, which is already the juried third). Would there be separate waitlists? A month of Pro Row/Juried apps/selection/payment, 3-4 months of FCFS apps/selection/payment/waitlists until full, then another few months of the lotto process? It would be a hell of a lot of work for our volunteer staff. Most of the bigger cons at this point have paid employees. This idea has some legs and probably warrants further discussion, but not in the two hours we have left today, certainly.
Not really??? If we're talking AB only, then yeah, do Pro Row still. Then two separate google forms. FCFS goes first, obviously. If it's as big as AB, it won't take 3-4 months to fill. then a lotto form for the rest of the tables, that closes after a certain time. If you dont pay within a window, you get booted to a lotto waitlist pool. Obviously there can be tweaks depending on the staffs preferences, but like, it's not THAT logistically difficult. Certainly less of a mess then what we got now, which is webtechs trying to stave off a flood they might never be able to conquer and is likely to only increase as the years go on.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by yuari » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:25 pm

Kino wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:18 pm
I think the main concern isn't a lack of dedication, but the way that a handful of applicants are throwing a wrench into the works for literally everyone.
The web admin just posted an update.
One of the root causes we found today were people opening multiple sessions to the form page, in an attempt to load it as soon as possible. Some people had 2 or 3 sessions connecting. But other had 10-30 sessions connecting. The server (any server) can only handle so many at once. That many per person was blocking other people from accessing the site.
This is my #1 reason for changing things, there should be some change to prevent this from happening.
Yes, the internet is the wild west and people can do what they want. But this is causing a major headache. The FCFS model is easy to take advantage of. Yes, even if they switched to something like eventbrite there still would be tons of refreshing, but at least the server won't break down.

I am not affected by the delay since I don't have work on the weekends but I still have sympathy for others.
That is NOT the root of the problem. The system itself is. You don't even know if this is one person using 30 tabs or 30 people sharing a network in a public space or at a friend's house, etc. Blaming this "handful of applicants" is not going to solve anything and neither is the solution they proposed in that thread.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by sweet4emii » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:33 pm

I think it's about how we view conventions and where we want to quality of this industry to go towards.

This may sound crazy to some people but I expect courtesy from others to be understanding of our schedules as people with lives. Sure, if you have enough 'dedication', you should wait until the cows come home. However, doesn't that say something about the convention and you? If they don't respect you as a individual with potential jobs and busy schedules, that's a problem. It's also a bigger problem that you are accepting this treatment. This is a huge problem with not just conventions but also other jobs/industries everywhere. People who are selling their self-worth and self-respect short are hurting the industry as a whole. If one person/a few people are willing to be taken advantage of, the convention as no reason to change their tune. I hope that people see application process like applying for a job in a regular industry. It highly unprofessional and inconsiderate for a company to interview you "sometime not before noon". Even when accepting application clear times and guidelines are laid out. No matter how big the company, I've never had any interviewer schedule applications in this manner. Why are convention organizers any different? Likely because people will still be 'willing' to sign up for it anyways.

I personally think your time is worth more than that and I hope you do in the future as well. If not, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by Kino » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:33 pm

I am blaming the system itself. The fact that the system is setup in this way is the reason this specific issue is happening.

I'm only going off the information given. Maybe there are people on public wifi and that's the reason the number is so high. But that does not change the core problem.

FCFS leads to frantic refreshing, which leads to server issues. Again, it's not a lack of dedication but it forces that dedication just to apply at all. I genuinely don't mean to offend, we're in the same boat.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by DaveTCN » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:42 pm

cheesebites wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:16 pm
That's not very fair of you to ignore the core of the first two people's complaints in favor of giving them petty responses. They had legitimate counters to your argument. Not everyone has the luxury and ability to be at their computer all day, not everyone has more than one device with which to sign up, nor multiple people to help them sign up.
OK, I'll indulge:
saltedpumpkin wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:32 pm
not everyone can afford to "just take off work" and sit chained to their computer for a 12 hour period.
If they can take three-four days off to vend, then they can take one day off to apply.
cambrasine wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:33 pm
Not every can afford to take a day off, or some can't without losing their jobs. Some people are sick or have other disabilities that prevent them from being able to be up and constantly refreshing for twelve hours.
If their day job is more important, then that's their decision. Also see my reply to saltedpumpkin just above. And actually, my wife is both sick and disabled - that's why I do this for her. I'm sure everyone else has people they can count on to help out.
Kino wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:18 pm
a handful of applicants are throwing a wrench into the works for literally everyone
This is very interesting. I hope they IP ban them tonight. I've got one tab on my laptop and one on my phone.
enchilada wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:22 pm
FCFS goes first, obviously. If it's as big as AB, it won't take 3-4 months to fill
The FCFS waitlist as it is goes in waves. Sometimes those waves aren't notified until weeks before the con. We were in that situation a few years ago - I can dig through my email if you want exact dates.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by yuari » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:45 pm

In that case, I respectfully suggest that you direct your frustration to the core of the problem rather than quoting a statement that blames the 20-30 tab networks as the "root cause." It may be just the way you worded it that brought some misunderstandings, but your statements do sound rather contradictory.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by egyptianruin » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:48 pm

I wonder how many people with this "unpopular opinion" were an artist in attendanc last year and years before.. if the system benefits you it is instinct to want to keep it in place.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by Kino » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:49 pm

yuari wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:45 pm
In that case, I respectfully suggest that you direct your frustration to the core of the problem rather than quoting a statement that blames the 20-30 tab networks as the "root cause." It may be just the way you worded it that brought some misunderstandings, but your statements do sound rather contradictory.
It's because I didn't consider the public wifi. With the initial info given I may have jumped to conclusions. (30 instances being one person etc)
But it's still the same issue. Too much refreshing = server issues.

FCFS is great for small conventions, not for major ones.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by enchilada » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:08 pm

DaveTCN wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:42 pm
cheesebites wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:16 pm
That's not very fair of you to ignore the core of the first two people's complaints in favor of giving them petty responses. They had legitimate counters to your argument. Not everyone has the luxury and ability to be at their computer all day, not everyone has more than one device with which to sign up, nor multiple people to help them sign up.
OK, I'll indulge:
saltedpumpkin wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:32 pm
not everyone can afford to "just take off work" and sit chained to their computer for a 12 hour period.
If they can take three-four days off to vend, then they can take one day off to apply.
What about people that are working AT a con? They should lose a whole day of sales? And for a sign up process that isn't working even when they try to put it up.

We're just asking you to have a little sympathy for those people who aren't in your situation.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by cotrung » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:22 pm

If you weren't willing and able to refresh the site for that 12-hour period, I'm sorry, maybe you just don't have the dedication to be in this alley.
Really? You're saying we don't deserve to be in this alley just because we don't want to be wasting a day away refreshing a webpage? Do you understand how artist alleys work? It's not as simple as getting a table. You need to have merchandise. And to get merchandise, you have to create it. And in order to create things, you need time. Something many of us do not have an abundance of so we try to make every minute count.
But, according to you, none of the effort we put into our art matters when it comes to this alley since we aren't willing to give away 12 hours of our time that could be used to do something more productive.
Have another con? Have a friend man your table.
I'm sure everyone else has people they can count on to help out.
Not all of us are as blessed to have someone like you in our lives. Can you help those of us who don't have anyone to count on to sign up for this convention at 6:00? Thanks!

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by tpitts » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:25 pm

Why should your ability to refresh a page for 12 hours dictate whether or not you're capable of tabling at an anime convention.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by tkawaii » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:02 pm

Lotto with a short window is better served for everyone. You didn't take into account sudden and short emergencies that come up or simple things like having to answer the door?

Still, you shouldn't be ok with wasting so much of your day or your friends' time just to sign up. You respect the con by paying your fees and following the rules and they should respect us by offering a reasonable service and expecting us to just waist that many hours regardless of our situation is unnecessary since there's other options and examples from other cons to take note.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by dreadwyrm » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:00 pm

hey dave what was ur timestamp

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by DaveTCN » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:02 pm

enchilada wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:08 pm
What about people that are working AT a con? They should lose a whole day of sales? And for a sign up process that isn't working even when they try to put it up.

We're just asking you to have a little sympathy for those people who aren't in your situation.
As I've mentioned in previous posts, if someone is at a con, they can have their booth buddy run things while they apply. And I do have sympathy, but as logolepticlibra said earlier, this is a competition. There are always other cons if someone doesn't make it in.
cotrung wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:22 pm
Do you understand how artist alleys work? It's not as simple as getting a table. You need to have merchandise. And to get merchandise, you have to create it. And in order to create things, you need time. Something many of us do not have an abundance of so we try to make every minute count.
Nine-year alley rat, 30+ years in art. No need to lecture me on how the creative process works, thanks. And bear in mind that some of us treat this as a business - and sometimes one has to put the art aside in order to make a sound business decision.
cotrung wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:22 pm
Not all of us are as blessed to have someone like you in our lives. Can you help those of us who don't have anyone to count on to sign up for this convention at 6:00? Thanks!
Sure, I can help by giving you some advice: Make some friends who are willing to give you a hand. Cons come and go, good friends don't. Prioritize. You'll live a much happier life.
tpitts wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:25 pm
Why should your ability to refresh a page for 12 hours dictate whether or not you're capable of tabling at an anime convention.
It shows dedication. Turning that around, why should RNG determine whether or not you're capable of tabling at an anime convention?
tkawaii wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:02 pm
you shouldn't be ok with wasting so much of your day or your friends' time just to sign up.
I wouldn't, if it was a waste. AB is big enough that it's worth my time.
dreadwyrm wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:00 pm
hey dave what was ur timestamp
6:02:37.

Anyway, looks like the fun is over for another year. See you guys at the con!

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Re: Unpopular Opinion

Post by tpitts » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:32 pm

tpitts wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:25 pm
Why should your ability to refresh a page for 12 hours dictate whether or not you're capable of tabling at an anime convention.
DaveTCN wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:25 pm
It shows dedication. Turning that around, why should RNG determine whether or not you're capable of tabling at an anime convention?
FCFS does show dedication, for sure. However, dedication does not necessarily mean one has a high quality portfolio or stock preparedness for a large convention.

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