Otakon went lottery this year

marikotoeii · Post by **marikotoeii** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:55 pm

And people HATED IT!!!

I just thought that I would point out that this is the first instance I have seen of a con actually using a lottery system.

the response has been quite negative.

basically they are taking the first 600 applications and then with some kind of random pc selection they are doling out 100 - 150 spaces at a time.

I just thought I would point this out becuase there has been alot of lottery talk for the artist alley at AB, and wanted to show a real world example.

You can read the response on their boards.

KitsuneCreations · Post by **KitsuneCreations** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:02 pm

Lottery has to be my least favorite idea. I personally think first-come first-serve is the most fair.

SailorAstera · Post by **SailorAstera** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:09 pm

I threw my name in the hat mostly just to see if I was "randomly" selected. But I'm not passionate about Otakon. I've never been there as an artist. If AB or AAC or any of my other favorite cons did a lottery I'd be heart broken. It's hard enough waiting for the juried decisions for Animazement T______T

PS. Can't find the thread on the board. Got a link?

Post by **MerchMaven** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:01 pm

It was only a matter of time before someone big went with the lottery system. I understand why artists hate it, but no matter what method a con uses to fill the AA, there's always going to be whining and tears from some segment of the population.

After all, how many people complain about first come, first serve when the date is set when they're busy elsewhere?

marikotoeii · Post by **marikotoeii** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:08 am

i think the key thing to remember is that there are a lot of shows out there. Heck I make it to 8 or 10 just in the new england area.

People get fixated on one show. but to me, Otakon is just one show out of many, If i dont get into that one i'll get into another.

i feel the same about AB and any con bc honestly life is too short to tear yourself up worrying about whether or not youll get in.

plus branching out into other cons other than just anime cons also helps give one perspective. Anything fro local craft and art shows to comic conventions, sci fi fantasy, college fairs.. heck even flea markets.

SailorAstera · Post by **SailorAstera** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:02 am

Yeah that's pretty true. I'd be really sad if I didn't get into AB since I think of it as like my "home" convention, but there are lots of other conventions and missing your mainstay for one year isn't the worst thing that could happen. It's all about perspective I guess :3

marikotoeii · Post by **marikotoeii** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:17 pm

not to mention the fact that even if you miss sign ups theres table sharing and the art show. Failing that there is the lost art of walking round and talking to people about your work.

cachalot · Post by **cachalot** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:04 pm

I'm not a huge fan of the lottery system, but I do know that Nan Desu Kan in Denver has been doing lottery for their AA for the last 2 or 3 years.

Delicious Orange · Post by **Delicious Orange** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:44 am

Not everyone hated it. Plenty of people had absolutely no problem with a lottery. In fact, I think it's a very good thing that Otakon went with a lottery system because frankly Artist Alley registration has been becoming way more of a hassle and way more stressful that it ever needed to be.

A lottery system SOLVES EVERY MAJOR ISSUE regarding registration.

Website breaking rushes to get in within the first few minutes of form getting posted? SOLVED

People having to reschedule their entire day around above registration crunch? SOLVED

People stressing out for days over whether or not they made the deadline and people utterly defeated because they checked the website 20 minutes too late? SOLVED

Difficulty selecting artists from a massive pool of applicants that far exceeds supply? SOLVED

Fair method of selecting artists? SOLVED

Otakon is honestly getting too large and too high demand to continue operating under the same outdated and ill advised standards they and many other conventions use to select entrants. While I think that there are better methods for selecting artists, a lottery system is a big step in the right direction.

mystcloud · Post by **mystcloud** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:05 pm

unsolved: People will still be stressing and pissed about not getting in, also, people who are not serious have an equal chance of getting in taking away tables from people who are serious and actually want to use their table to sell art and not as a hangout space

also, I don't know if you've ever had to go through a housing lottery in college, they are one of the most soul crushing stressful experiences I've ever had to deal with. Down with lotteries!

KitsuneCreations · Post by **KitsuneCreations** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:25 pm

Housing lottery... I am so glad my college dorm years are over, because the amount of stress that comes with having NO CONTROL over your future is unbearable. I personally think any form of lottery is much more stressful, you still have a period of time waiting, and since they only let 600 sign up, there was still an urgency to sign up ASAP... I don't think it solved that many problems.

Karux3 · Post by **Karux3** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 pm

Yeah, the website still crashed (I registered) because there were only 600 slots. I'm so nervous about getting a table...

SailorAstera · Post by **SailorAstera** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:57 am

Does anyone know how many tables they usually have?

marikotoeii · Post by **marikotoeii** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:44 pm

my guess would be 600. they give the option of getting teo tables which seems like with such competition for spaces they wouldnt keep doing.

SailorAstera · Post by **SailorAstera** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:59 pm

wow that's huge.

I wonder if they allow 2 tables because they have a lot of big studios or something? I heard people have already started getting their emails and paying for tables so that's exciting.

I just signed up on the board yesterday so I could be more in touch with what's going on. Didn't realize I'd caused such a stir with my "not passionate" comment. Sorry to anyone else here that I might have offended with that, I certainly didn't mean to.

marikotoeii · Post by **marikotoeii** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:40 pm

see i got my table but im really needing to hear back from animenext as to whether or not i got in there. So if i dint get in at anext otakon here i come.

SailorAstera · Post by **SailorAstera** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:03 pm

Are you only doing one or the other marikotoeii?

Karux3 · Post by **Karux3** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:41 pm

I still haven't gotten a table yet... I'm kind of worried, I hope I don't get wait listed

marikotoeii · Post by **marikotoeii** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:27 am

i really wanna do both but not having hotel roomies that are solid is scary. Anyone here looking for otakon artist roomies?

I know for sure i have a table at otakon. I have a good feeling about anext but the confirmations havent gone out yet.

So unless I can get a good room mate situaiton I will only be able to do one.

And I did see the not passionate thing and i thought that was bogus. I think the term "more mature/realistic" might apply. You start doing a lot of shows and u realize that the loss of one show can be a bummer but not a catastrophy. I feel like with most anime cons it is a roll of the dice.

I got denied entrance in the jury show of portcon this year. i just kinda shrugged it off and looked into other shows.

as it sets now i wanna shoot for atleast one bnig summer con, either anime next or otakon. but hey if those two fail me I might jump in for Anime Central or Anime Expo.

I just dont want to have to get into a refund war with otakorp, bc i hear itd hard to get a timely refund. So i am holding off (they give u 14 days to buy your table) to see what the word with anext is. I have heard from the coordinator she hopes to get word out by the end of the month. So lets hope

SailorAstera · Post by **SailorAstera** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:38 am

If I got into Otakon I'd be scrambling to make arrangements, including a hotel. I want to go to both and I think AN is looking up for me but Otakon is just a huge question mark. I won't even know for sure by the end of the week because if I am waitlisted then it's still "random" if I get in or not later. xD At least with FCFS you can know where you are on the waitlist and gauge the likelihood of getting in, but with the lottery there's really a lot more uncertainty.

And yeah, I agree about the way the dice rolls on conventions. I know that someday I am probably going to miss out on AB and probably I will be upset about it. But life goes on!

Animazement is supposed to get back to us tonight with a "yes/no" on their juried selection so at least that will give me some peace since I've already booked my flight

okapirose · Post by **okapirose** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:01 pm

Waiting on AnimeNext as well. :/

Otakon is just too expensive overall, especially for someone like me who can't carry everything within a couple binders and bags and hop on the earliest flight. Between travel, hotel costs, and the con itself, its not worth the trip. Until of course I get a private jet XD But then again, Anime Expo would be my first choice to try and get into should I acquire such transportation XD

Lottery overall? Hoping it stays far from upper New England's cons...Would rather have a juried systemm over that.

This year, Another Anime Con is the big one I need to get into at all costs (its my hometown con, how could I not attept such?). Even if I have to squeeze into a couple feet of space. Fingers crossed they keep the hallway system they had last year, that was awesome and helpful C:

Karux3 · Post by **Karux3** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:17 pm

Omg I got a table! So excited >_< The lottery system is very stressful

Dixxy · Post by **Dixxy** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:13 pm

I honestly have not seen the response on their boards - where did you see it?

marikotoeii · Post by **marikotoeii** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:53 am

there were a few diff posts. you need to sign in to see the artist alley forum. But there was certainly an outcry against it.

Post by **MerchMaven** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:02 am

That's the thing, I'm STAFF on Otakon, not having anything to do with AA, of course, but I should be able to see all the forums and I can't find an AA forum. Of course, their BBS layout confuses and terrifies me. 8)

marikotoeii · Post by **marikotoeii** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:12 am

i think its under art show / artist alley though i havet looked in a few days it mightve been deleted ??

pulsedemon · Post by **pulsedemon** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:08 pm

FWIW, polling we've done on the subject didn't point toward a single unifying method that satisfies everyone. It's possible the fault could lie in the questions and the way they were asked, but we tried most of the common 'tricks' to determine if we were getting people to actually read the questions and answer honestly and consistently. Nikki, maybe you have a better recollection, but I seem to remember answers being pretty consistent and also inconclusive.

It's tough because there's only so much space and so many people want to be a part. It's not tough to have such a vibrant community, but we saw a big increase in the number of people that expressed intent this year. Nikki spent a lot of time going through those letters, trying to find a way to accommodate as many people as possible as equitably as possible, but even then it wasn't easy.

No method is going to be perfect, but different methods have their strengths and weaknesses.

BlackSunRising · Post by **BlackSunRising** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:58 pm

From what I remember, the AA sign-up options were presented as:

- A lottery
- A juried show
- First-come, first served, which remains the current system.

People protested the juried show because they felt there could be bias and was unfair to "beginner" artists. People protested the lottery because there was zero control over whether you got in or not. And people protest our current system because the day the LOI form goes live isn't convenient for everybody.

It's actually a worthwhile question to those artists who attend more than one show: which system do they prefer? The Otakon lottery, AB's "first come, first served" sytem, or AAC's (I think) juried show?

KitsuneCreations · Post by **KitsuneCreations** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:54 pm

AAC is first-come first-serve. PortCon went with a juried show this year for the first time, some enjoyed it, some were pretty upset if they didn't make it in.

Meh, I still say first-come first-serve is the fairest WITH some control. If you are busy that day, you must have a friend, a fellow artist, a family member etc. that could help you sign up if you are away. Or you could argue that if you can give up an entire weekend and a Friday to sell at a con, you should be able to give up one more day to get in if you are that dedicated. If you have something else going on that you can't miss, Im sure someone else could help you out

Post by **Tuberat** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:44 am

correct christian - the results were pretty inconclusive. though we asked like a million questions, we also did a "Please rate each option" on how well or not well you liked the idea.

the problem with the polls is, quite literally, that not enough of the people who shouuld be filling them out ARE filling them out. the first time we tried a VERY simple paper poll back when we had like, 50 people in the alley. we got about 10 back at the end of the con. that was in 2005 or 06

later i worked up this online poll, went over it over and over gain (and it still had mistakes, i admit) trying to get it right and cover every possible angle and answer...and about 100 people actually filled it out, despite the opportunity to win a table in a raffle based on who entered in their thoughts and opinions.

i DO believe, that the year the poll went live, we put up a condensed version of the results on the website.

ah yes, here it is Pertinent Survey Results from 2009

Post by **Tuberat** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:46 am

Yeah, AAC is not, but NekoCon IS a juried show. their AA manager has been trying to convince me its the way to go and is willing ot help me with it, if i ever decided to go that way.

marikotoeii · Post by **marikotoeii** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:37 am

I, personally, felt either way about it. but there seemed to be a huge outcry against it. (i had to wade through the complaints to find information on how much the tables would be, since that info was no where to be found on the site at that time)

600 tables is a lot of tables! So i think getting into the lottery would be pretty good odds.

Though with tht many tables.. it seems ridiculously huge. heck even 300 tables seems daunting.

yuureikun · Post by **yuureikun** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:07 am

Actually there's 270 tables. And they took 600 applicants.

SailorAstera · Post by **SailorAstera** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:30 am

Animazement was also juried this year for the first time. There were a lot of unhappy artists (though that might have more to do with the alley being kicked out of the ballroom, the price going up a lot, or that there are even less tables than there were before).

It really is true there's no option that will make everyone happy. I don't mind a juried system but I think the inherent problems with it are bigger than FCFS which is my ultimate preference. The lottery really offers no control and I think it's really the hardest, psychologically. Even if you are waitlisted for Otakon, you could still be randomly selected if a table comes up, right up til the convention. It's very hard to plan when you have totally no idea what could happen. At least with FCFS (or even a jury) you could find out where you are on the wait list and gauge the likelihood of actually getting in.

I do find it interesting that a lot of artists are choosing to collab and go to the dealer's room when they don't get into the alley with juried or the lottery. When you have a policy like Otakon's, that decision is made to be a lot more difficult (it's a one way door into the dealer's room - you can never come back to the alley). But with Animazement, I think it might work out really well for those artists who've chosen to do it that way.

I agree with Allyson-x; if you can't be there for FCFS, ask a reliable friend. Offer them some art in return. :content:

hookedonchibis · Post by **hookedonchibis** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:58 am

Well, whatever you do, please don't do what PortCon Maine did this year.

We sent our LoI and samples for their juried AA, and they wrote back at the appropriate time to say we'd been wait-listed. That's fine, but when we had a look at who made the cut (after all, who wouldn't want to see what the judges were looking for?), we were perplexed. They had expressed a desire for variety in their initial announcement, but there was very little variety to be had among their final selections, and some very experienced and talented artists were passed up in favor of ... less talented artists. (Please don't flame me, I know art is subjective and that there are people just starting out. I'm only saying this in order to illustrate: there was no discernible logic behind who they chose.)

So we wrote to the AA coordinator and said "hey, we're confused, what were your deciding factors?" Their response: a variety of things, but one of the most important was persistence: how many times had you already tried to appear at PortCon?

Yeah, we were wait-listed because it was our first year trying. Talent, skill, professionalism, variety, all apparently took a back seat to how long you'd been knocking on the door. We were encouraged to keep trying in later years, but I'm not sure I want to, if "juried" is just their way of saying "waiting in line".

Again, I mean no insult to any of the artists. We're all working hard, and beginners deserve just as much of a shot as veterans. I don't begrudge anyone going to PortCon their spot. Just ... as I said, "juried" should not amount to "take a number".

pulsedemon · Post by **pulsedemon** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:26 pm

Part of my own hesitation in recommending a jury selection process has been that I want to see 'less skilled' people getting a shot. Part of the reason I think the community remains so strong is the fact that we try to keep it as 'fair' as possible, but still guided - give some exposure to newer artists so they can refine their work, as advised by 'patrons' and also keep a representative sample of more established artists. Again, it's not a perfect system, but it's the route that we've felt best about recently. Anyone that didn't get an opportunity to showcase their work wouldn't feel it was very fair, and that's to be expected. Ultimately, this is the system that works for us. Otakon's system works for them. AAC's system works for them.

A lottery and the first-come-first-served approaches both eliminate potentials for bias - the questions of experience and 'ability'. We haven't tried the lottery approach, but the first-come-first-served method only works to a point (where the server gets hammered so hard it kills the whole site). Really, the very nature of both of those approaches makes them infinitely 'fair'. Regardless, complaining about another event on this forum isn't going to help anybody. I think the discussion here has at least been valuable to keep us advised on what works.

Post by **MerchMaven** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:21 pm

[quote=hookedonchibis]Well, whatever you do, please don't do what PortCon Maine did this year.

We sent our LoI and samples for their juried AA, and they wrote back at the appropriate time to say we'd been wait-listed. That's fine, but when we had a look at who made the cut (after all, who wouldn't want to see what the judges were looking for?), we were perplexed. They had expressed a desire for variety in their initial announcement, but there was very little variety to be had among their final selections, and some very experienced and talented artists were passed up in favor of ... less talented artists. (Please don't flame me, I know art is subjective and that there are people just starting out. I'm only saying this in order to illustrate: there was no discernible logic behind who they chose.)

So we wrote to the AA coordinator and said "hey, we're confused, what were your deciding factors?" Their response: a variety of things, but one of the most important was persistence: how many times had you already tried to appear at PortCon?

Yeah, we were wait-listed because it was our first year trying. Talent, skill, professionalism, variety, all apparently took a back seat to how long you'd been knocking on the door. We were encouraged to keep trying in later years, but I'm not sure I want to, if "juried" is just their way of saying "waiting in line".

Again, I mean no insult to any of the artists. We're all working hard, and beginners deserve just as much of a shot as veterans. I don't begrudge anyone going to PortCon their spot. Just ... as I said, "juried" should not amount to "take a number".[/quote]

That's the thing about jurying: There should never be an answer to "Why was X admitted and I was not?"

I know that a person who's been rejected, especially in favor of someone who's work they consider inferior to their own, feels they are due an explanation, but it's a losing proposition. You didn't like being told that they were rewarding those who had applied previously, but would it have made you any happier to hear, "We considered your work inferior to what we chose?"

Portcon has 20 artist spaces. It is a MUCH smaller convention, with a much smaller ROI, and a much smaller pool of applicants than Otakon or even AB would get.

I reiterate my stat from the previous thread on jurying/raffle/price increases/lottery: For 600 applicants, if each Letter of Intent/Portfolio/application was given five minutes of consideration, the staff would spend 50+ hours doing nothing but staring at the applications.

Fifty hours. It is a daunting, painful number to even contemplate. And after all that work, you would still have 300 unhappy artists asking why they were passed over in favor of someone else. It's a losing proposition for the staff.

SailorAstera · Post by **SailorAstera** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:41 pm

Honestly, that's the biggest reason I would never want to have a juried system if I were on a staff. I can't imagine how much more work that is; it sounds completely daunting.

hookedonchibis · Post by **hookedonchibis** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:56 pm

[quote=SciFiGrl47][quote=hookedonchibis]
So we wrote to the AA coordinator and said "hey, we're confused, what were your deciding factors?" Their response: a variety of things, but one of the most important was persistence: how many times had you already tried to appear at PortCon?

Yeah, we were wait-listed because it was our first year trying. Talent, skill, professionalism, variety, all apparently took a back seat to how long you'd been knocking on the door. We were encouraged to keep trying in later years, but I'm not sure I want to, if "juried" is just their way of saying "waiting in line"[/quote]

That's the thing about jurying: There should never be an answer to "Why was X admitted and I was not?"

I know that a person who's been rejected, especially in favor of someone who's work they consider inferior to their own, feels they are due an explanation, but it's a losing proposition. You didn't like being told that they were rewarding those who had applied previously, but would it have made you any happier to hear, "We considered your work inferior to what we chose?"
[/quote]

I see your point, and it wouldn't be an easy thing to hear, but it would be the fair thing to hear. I'd much rather hear that my work was less than top quality, than hear that I just hadn't wanted it badly enough by virtue of my having not applied in previous years. However, I'm not every artist, and I'm sure that not every artist would react as ... diplomatically ^^;

I guess to me, the real problem here is that they DID give a response. A canned response of "Our jury selection contains a number of criteria, and the decisions are made as a result of many averages and blah blah" would have felt less personal, and not actually ANSWERED anything, but it would have been easy to shrug off with "well, what did we expect". Instead, we were given a specific answer - and a really capricious-seeming answer - and here we are.

So I guess, if Anime Boston DOES go jury, and even if they DO decide to base decisions primarily on history of applications, please don't go and tell the artists that. Instead of feeling like our work was actually looked at, we now feel like we've just pulled a number at the DMV and will have to stay in line or lose our place.

Archimer · Post by **Archimer** » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:46 pm

Good evening, folks! I apologize in advance for derailing this topic somewhat, but I feel that it would be negligent of me to not address the issue of PortCon.

Re: Hookedonchibis

I am sorry that my response has upset you. I assure you that I did not intend to sound "canned" or "capricious." I certainly did not mean to make it sound as if persistence was a factor in the jury's decision. I meant only to reassure you that the declination letter was not personal and to encourage you to apply again in the future.

As has been mentioned previously, jurying takes a long time. Each of the Committee members put a lot of time and thought into their selections. We do not have a fraction of the space at PortCon that is necessary to satisfy the demand for it.

In previous years, we had a sign up form online. We accepted applications on a first-come, first-served basis. This worked out for a while, but the Artists' Alley's popularity continued to rise with each year. Last year, the form system that we set up broke, and it turned out that we did not receive some applications. Everybody literally camped out at their computer until midnight, and submitted within the same minute. There were a whole lot of complaints about this system.

It is because of this that we've been looking into different ways of doing things. This year, we had a Committee made up of all kinds of different people, not just art staff. The committee members read and considered each application individually, visiting all of the websites and photo galleries provided one by one.

We are actively trying to think of ways to make the Alley more fair and enjoyable, and we are always open to suggestions from our attendees. It helps a lot when these suggestions are delivered to me or the Art Staff directly.

Regards,
Arch

marikotoeii · Post by **marikotoeii** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:16 pm

I also went through the Portcon sign up and was turned down for a table. I have been a guest artist and panelist several times in the past, so I really don't think ones persistence with attending / exhibiting at, Portcon had much to do with it.

I would encourage all of you to really see if you can expand your base of shows. Once you can do that, you will really lose alot of the stress associated with getting tables/

I was waitlisted at Anime Next and I was declined at Portcon, but I am still doing 6 or 7 shows in the New England area.

If you are an artist who would like to add more shows to your calender, please feel free to message me. I can give you some further insight.

We cannot change the demand for spaces, and as such there will always be missed opportunities.

Next year I will fill out the form again and so on. If I get in , fantastic, if not i'll move on to the next.

I can say that Portcon is a VERY small con, is probably a better con for people to start out. So i can see how they want to get some beginners in.

Delicious Orange · Post by **Delicious Orange** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:21 pm

[quote=marikotoeii]600 tables is a lot of tables! So i think getting into the lottery would be pretty good odds.

Though with tht many tables.. it seems ridiculously huge. heck even 300 tables seems daunting.[/quote]

You brain would explode if you saw how many tables are in some of Japan's artist alleys.

Otakon = 270 tables
Comiket = 11650 tables (and each table is give to a different artist each day, making the total number of people selling in the alley nearly 35000)

If anything I think Comiket is a perfect example of what American art alleys should be attempting to do. In the 1980s they faced a similar situation of being stuck around the 200 table mark and demand vastly outstripping their available space. Rather than choke it like we are now; they rapidly expanded to larger venues and doubled in size nearly every year. What was the result? As they doubled in size, their attendance tripled in size. Now they completely fill the largest convention center in the country twice a year with more than a half a million people attending the event.

Post by **Faceman** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:42 pm

[quote=Delicious Orange][quote=marikotoeii]600 tables is a lot of tables! So i think getting into the lottery would be pretty good odds.

Though with tht many tables.. it seems ridiculously huge. heck even 300 tables seems daunting.[/quote]

You brain would explode if you saw how many tables are in some of Japan's artist alleys.

Otakon = 270 tables
Comiket = 11650 tables (and each table is give to a different artist each day, making the total number of people selling in the alley nearly 35000)

If anything I think Comiket is a perfect example of what American art alleys should be attempting to do. In the 1980s they faced a similar situation of being stuck around the 200 table mark and demand vastly outstripping their available space. Rather than choke it like we are now; they rapidly expanded to larger venues and doubled in size nearly every year. What was the result? As they doubled in size, their attendance tripled in size. Now they completely fill the largest convention center in the country twice a year with more than a half a million people attending the event.[/quote]

I don't think that's quite feasible for US-based Cons and their AAs. Comparatively, Japan is overall a little smaller than California. Not to say they're small, but it's significantly easier to travel within CA only, as opposed to across the country. If US Artists' Alleys were to follow the working of Comiket and go to whatever venue was the biggest in the nation, you'd have everything in one single location the entire country would have to access.

If you look at the larger picture of US anime cons (and not just AAs), a lot of them are in the biggest hosting venue that can support them and their needs. It's not just all about how many people can you fit into a building. A lot of it is total rooms, layout, usage, location stuff (hotels nearby, ease of access, access to food and other amenities), and how much the place would cost relative to the projected intake of cash from attendance.

Let's say a con hits the attendance cap on their current venue. There may be other options within a 100 mile radius for larger venues, but if it's not as accessible, then less people will come. If it's too big, and charges too much more than the current venu, the con may not be able to afford the larger venue, because their attendance wouldn't have grown to the size necessary to support the increased costs of business.

While it's cool that there's one huge thing in Japan for artists to gather at, I think the geographic and logistical difficulties would make it infeasible for a US equivalent. Furthermore, I'd propose that the US's current model of many smaller and spread out AAs (and cons) has its own separate benefits. They're smaller, easier to get to based on your own location, can feature local artists more readily, and the organizers don't have to think on a national scale necessarily when planning them. Also if one is executed poorly or shuts down, then there are multiple other options.

hookedonchibis · Post by **hookedonchibis** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:16 am

@Archimer, it's really okay. I know that you're doing a difficult job and, at the end of the day, it's difficult to wholly represent my feelings on the matter through text - especially something this multifaceted. You didn't sound canned at all - far from it, and I appreciate that. In fact, I might not have been clear, but I had meant to say that a canned answer would have been aggravating in a completely different way ^^; And while the reasoning you gave felt and sounded capricious, I want to stress that I do know what goes into juried art selection and I understand that it's no easy thing.

tl;dr version: I think this is why coordinators don't typically provide answers like this - it was harder to hear what you gave me than it would have been to get a canned response!!

But, I don't ask questions if I'm not ready for the answer, and I kind of knew I was asking the AA equivalent of "does this make me look fat?", in that there's never a good answer.

Thanks for taking the time to GIVE me a fair response, however upsetting it may have been, and I'm sorry that my steam-venting on this thread didn't really show that, underneath my vexation, I really do understand, and I don't think ill of you

... <_< is this the part where I put my arms up for a hug and ask if we can still be friends?

hookedonchibis · Post by **hookedonchibis** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:27 am

[quote=Faceman][quote=Delicious Orange]
If anything I think Comiket is a perfect example of what American art alleys should be attempting to do. In the 1980s they faced a similar situation of being stuck around the 200 table mark and demand vastly outstripping their available space. Rather than choke it like we are now; they rapidly expanded to larger venues and doubled in size nearly every year. What was the result? As they doubled in size, their attendance tripled in size. Now they completely fill the largest convention center in the country twice a year with more than a half a million people attending the event.[/quote]

If you look at the larger picture of US anime cons (and not just AAs), a lot of them are in the biggest hosting venue that can support them and their needs. It's not just all about how many people can you fit into a building. A lot of it is total rooms, layout, usage, location stuff (hotels nearby, ease of access, access to food and other amenities), and how much the place would cost relative to the projected intake of cash from attendance.

Let's say a con hits the attendance cap on their current venue. There may be other options within a 100 mile radius for larger venues, but if it's not as accessible, then less people will come.[/quote]

that's one of the reasons BakuretsuCon hasn't grown, if I'm recalling correctly what their coordinators have told me (it was some years ago!). The venue that they use is already the largest one in their area, and they are HOURS away from anything larger enough to be worth relocating to (I live 2 hours away from Boston, in the direction of Burlington, and it's STILL 4 hours for me to get up there!). So for them to just "find more room", they'd end up so far out of their home-base that they may as well just travel en masse to an existing con ... which many of them already do. They HAVE this con because there are enough people in their area, and who they can attract to their area, that a con can support itself - and that's awesome for them.

Small cons also have a community feel that's really missing from the big ones. I've been to 5 cons so far this year and I'm going to another 3 before April is even over, but my favorite one so far was Queen City Kamikaze, up in Manchester NH. It's only in its second year, it's one day, and it's put on by the high school anime club. It had 350 people this year, almost double their Year One attendance. But the attendees were fun, they were engaging, almost everyone from 2010 remembered us and asked how we'd been and what we're up to, the other artists were friendly and talkative - I got to spend more time talking to the c'lay la vie girls there than I ever would have at AB, just because of the intimate atmosphere!

It wasn't a huge money maker, but not every con is about profits and promotion. Sometimes it helps to be at a small con, just because it reminds us that we love this stuff too!!

Anyway, my two cents. (my eight cents? I'm awfully talkative today)

hemlock_Inyx · Post by **hemlock_Inyx** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:46 pm

I've done both FCFS and Juried. (AnimeNEXT & MangaNEXT) And I can say that from a staff point of view, I prefer FCFS. Jurying a show takes a lot of time, and while it seemed like a good idea at the time, it was still too much work for even a small show.

I think FCFS is the best option, because its fair, and unlike a lottery system, it gives the people who are willing to go the extra mile--sitting in front of that computer all day--a better chance at a table.

In all honesty I'd prefer some other criteria for getting a table. Like do people have experience--selling at another con or something similar? Can people prove they've read and understand the rules? Do they have a decent display with a decent amount of stuff to sell? Are they willing to be there all day--for three days? Or make sure that the table is never empty by sharing with someone else?

Because while I have to think about my artists, I also have to think about what is best for the con too. And empty tables, and a poor looking Artist Alley doesn't offer value to the rest of the con-goers. Because I don't forget that the artist alley provides over 30+hours of programming--as in its something to DO.

My ideal Artist Alley would be filled with serious, committed artists and crafters with quality products and creative displays. And NO EMPTY TABLES--EVER!

And I just happen to think that if you are willing to sit at your computer refreshing the page on a saturday--then you are more committed than someone who signs up on a whim and happens to get the luck of the draw. And more likely to give me my ideal AA.

/tldr: I run an AA, and I like FCFS, and committed artists.

Archimer · Post by **Archimer** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:59 pm

Hookedonchibis: I very much appreciate your understanding. Thanks.

We'll be keeping an eye on discussions like this, and taking in what we can from them.