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Post by jms » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:05 pm

[quote=KitKat]Let me explain this for you though.
A TV network buys the liscencing for a show from the production company, and then sells add space for a profit. The more popular the show/network/timeslot the more money the TV network is making off of the show. The more money any network can make off of a show give the production company rights to get more money for selling the liscencing for that show.

Now, considering the network's ratings dont go up from fansubs ripped off Japanese TV and poorly translated then made available on bittorrent- making it available for hundreds of thousands of anime fans to download for free.[/quote]There is no other way to watch Japanese tv from outside of japan, thus no possible way for all those people downloading to have any effect - positive or negative - on the Japanese ratings. And yes, there are no ads in fansubs, but they would be japanese ads, anyway, so they'd be more or less worthless to American viewwers.

[quote=KitKat]The Japanese Animation market completely depends on American money in order to keep going.[/quote]So I guess anime didn't exist before there was American demand? If the entire industry relies on a relatively small subset of the population of another country, they're probably doing something very wrong.

[quote=KitKat]If you've watched the fan subs for all of naruto, bleach, one piece, etc. You aren't going to buy the DVD sets, or even watch much of it on TV (Especially since a lot of fansubs fans hate american dubs)[/quote]I'll probably never buy a lot of American TV shows on DVD, either. I catch an episode now and then, will watch stuff on-demand, or watch stuff with friends. And lets be completely honest here, if a person isn't going to buy the DVD, they're not going to buy the DVD, and by that I mean, even if fansubs never existed, people would find ways to watch things without paying. Thats just the way things work, because there is always a way.

[quote=KitKat]People need to stop seeing Anime as some sureel artform that people make for love. The companies behind it want money out of it, and cheating the system by pirating only in the end will make it not exist anymore.[/quote]All the anime merchandise, DVDs, toys, etc that I see everywhere, not to mention all of it on tv, leads me to believe that there will not be a shortage of fans watching shows, uh, on TV or DVD.

[quote=KitKat]Sort of like how the music companies dont make much money anymore. Artists HAVE to tour now because everyone just steals the music they used to sell to make a living off of.[/quote]That is a WHOLE other can or worms not worth touching in this thread. Suffice to say the RIAA has more to do with artists not making money than pirates do.


[quote=KitKat]I would go for an online streaming version of shows as well, I wouldn't mind paying monthly for quality translations. ^.^[/quote]
It would ultimately depend on the service, but this would be ideal.

And for the record, I am absolutely against bootlegging. As much as I love fansubs, I cannot stand bootlegs. Especially of licensed anime. The idea of making money off of someone else's IP without express consent and a kickback to the original author really just irks me.

[quote=NanamiAsagi]I really, really wish people would start watching the Sogen Con panel/going to Stop Fansubs before they start to argue in this thread; it's really irritating to have to restate arguments like this when I spent probably two or three hours the other day compiling information on the topic.[/quote]Did watch, no questions were answered. Maybe I'll make a flow chart at some point so you all understand what I'm not understanding.


edit: p2 snypa.

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Post by KitKat » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:45 pm

You clearly didn't watch the ENTIRE panell if you dont understand that the American market seriously affects how much of what and weather or not there are shows available.
(sarcasm)
But, you know. I Know nothing, seeing as I beieve doing illegal things is not only wrong in most cases, but that in this case it is seriously detrimental to the industry.

Whereas you know all, since fan subs completely dont undermine profits to feed the cycle which producing shows is. (/sarcasm)

Really, you can go on iTunes and get an entire series of anime for $20 (and even preview it in some cases on other sites before you buy). Things that LEGALLY have subtitles and dubs. As opposed to people leaching off the system.

If you refuse to Validate any of my points (And Greg's, and anyone who really understands the situation) then all your doing is circumventing this thread in attempts of saying that stealing copyrighted, lisenced shows is perfectly okay, even when there are ways of you getting the material. (Provided your patient and the number of people who dont want to see the ends of ongoing shows due to fan subs isn't too large to not even cover the costs of lisencing it in America)

And really, the situation in the music industry is really analogus of this one. I'm not opening up a can of worms- I'm just trying to get you to relate it to something else you might be able to comprehend.

(As for the mentioning us not bringing up japanese ratings, not all things are up or down. I just mean that its leaching off the system. You are getting for free what 100's of thousands of dollars went into (One episode of Anime costs 150-200 thousand dolars to produce). The Japanese consumers are paying for it and buying the products advertised, while you are sitting on your butt on your computer stealing the episodes)

Also theres a large difference between watching something on American TV (Which IS putting money into the system, which I explained in my post.) and not buying the DVDs than stealing the shows and expecting there to be an unlimited amount of things to watch when so many fans don't feed the cycle at all, simply leech off of it.

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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:56 pm

Most of this is copy-pasted from past posts i've made elsewhere, but since this discussion does not deserve fresh content it's not getting it.

In general, I fail to see the moral issue with watching something free-to-air with the accepted legality and moral correctness of devices such as Tivo. I'd wager a significant amount of people feel the same way.

A tangential though? I don't think so - Any business that is centered around getting people to pay large amounts of money for a free-to-air product (or even a cable product if you'll allow me some leeway) is on shaky ground to begin with.

Even moreso than the record industry or the movie industry, the anime dubbing industry has mistaken "I will watch it, but not pay for it" fans from "I have the money to spend on this kind of stuff" fans. They have greatly overestimated their potential sales and licensed and dubbed everything under the sun and are now put in the position of realizing their market isn't what they thought it would be.

The downturn in the economy has made luxury spending far more scarce - that reduces sales from market share A, children with little or no income of their own (this is a big market share). Their assumed market share B, college students (that have been shown to be the age group most prolific in supporting fan subs) don't have any money. They never had much to begin with, but with school prices rising and the economy the way it is, money is tighter than ever. They're buying less, but were thought of as the group that would buy more. Market share C would be those that have expendable incomes - again... economic pressures might reduce sales a bit there too.

This mindset of fansubs = lost revenue is complete crap. If people do not have money they will not buy regardless if they watch for free or not.
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Post by jms » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:13 pm

[quote=BasharOfTheAges]Tivo...
...
This mindset of fansubs = lost revenue is complete crap. If people do not have money they will not buy regardless if the watch for free or not.[/quote]This.

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Post by DanoruX » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:36 pm

[quote=jms][quote=BasharOfTheAges]Tivo...
...
This mindset of fansubs = lost revenue is complete crap. If people do not have money they will not buy regardless if the watch for free or not.[/quote]This.[/quote]
I disagree - fansubs ARE lost revenue, but in terms of advertising, not DVD sales.

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Post by jms » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:51 pm

[quote=DanoruX][quote=jms][quote=BasharOfTheAges]Tivo...
...
This mindset of fansubs = lost revenue is complete crap. If people do not have money they will not buy regardless if the watch for free or not.[/quote]This.[/quote]
I disagree - fansubs ARE lost revenue, but in terms of advertising, not DVD sales.[/quote]Lost revenue for who? The Japanese ads are stripped out, so I guess for them, but, well, I'm an American! Japanese ads have no affect on me anyway!
As for licensed stuff, I don't see how. If I wanted to watch the show with awful dubbing, I'd have waited for whatever show it is to come to cartoon network.

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Post by DanoruX » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:59 pm

[quote=jms][quote=DanoruX][quote=jms][quote=BasharOfTheAges]Tivo...
...
This mindset of fansubs = lost revenue is complete crap. If people do not have money they will not buy regardless if the watch for free or not.[/quote]This.[/quote]
I disagree - fansubs ARE lost revenue, but in terms of advertising, not DVD sales.[/quote]Lost revenue for who? The Japanese ads are stripped out, so I guess for them, but, well, I'm an American! Japanese ads have no affect on me anyway!
As for licensed stuff, I don't see how. If I wanted to watch the show with awful dubbing, I'd have waited for whatever show it is to come to cartoon network.
[/quote]
The yet untapped internet advertising revenue.

Oh and in case we do see the kind of service I've been describing - I CALLED IT!

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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:08 pm

TIVO! Any ads can be taken out of the equation if we don't crucify tivo and other DVRs for doing the exact same thing.
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Post by jms » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:34 pm

[quote=DanoruX][quote=jms][quote=DanoruX][quote=jms][quote=BasharOfTheAges]Tivo...
...
This mindset of fansubs = lost revenue is complete crap. If people do not have money they will not buy regardless if the watch for free or not.[/quote]This.[/quote]
I disagree - fansubs ARE lost revenue, but in terms of advertising, not DVD sales.[/quote]Lost revenue for who? The Japanese ads are stripped out, so I guess for them, but, well, I'm an American! Japanese ads have no affect on me anyway!
As for licensed stuff, I don't see how. If I wanted to watch the show with awful dubbing, I'd have waited for whatever show it is to come to cartoon network.
[/quote]
The yet untapped internet advertising revenue.

Oh and in case we do see the kind of service I've been describing - I CALLED IT![/quote]Ah, so we're causing lost revenues in a revenue stream that doesn't exist yet, sweet.

I tells ya, if they had free streaming episodes, with ads, out within a week or 2 of the episode air-date in Japan, I'd never be inclined to download another fansub for the show(s) in question. South Park does it already, no need to download/watch on tv anymore since I can jsut stream it, free and legally :D

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Post by DanoruX » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:02 am

[quote=BasharOfTheAges]TIVO! Any ads can be taken out of the equation if we don't crucify tivo and other DVRs for doing the exact same thing.[/quote]

The TIVO people are a different market than the fansub people. :P

[quote=jms]Ah, so we're causing lost revenues in a revenue stream that doesn't exist yet, sweet.

I tells ya, if they had free streaming episodes, with ads, out within a week or 2 of the episode air-date in Japan, I'd never be inclined to download another fansub for the show(s) in question. South Park does it already, no need to download/watch on tv anymore since I can jsut stream it, free and legally :D[/quote]
Lost revenues from a revenue stream that would exist if certain people would spend more time thinking with dollar signs rather than razor blades. :)

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Post by Tez » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:17 pm

[quote=DanoruX]
Oh and I could care less about the English dubbing industry until the standards come closer to Japanese and more distant from what I've seen fandubs do. (Not discrediting Greg, but lets face it - most English dubs voices are either crap or miscast. I tend to promote the idea of the latter in good faith...)[/quote]

Do you honestly not know that DVD's include the sub as well as the dub, if they have the dub at all? Who cares that you don't like dubs? You can watch the DVDs in the original Japanese with the subs. Frankly, it is my personal experience that people who claim to watch only subs, actually watch the dubs when they think no one is looking. Maybe that's not you, but I'm just making a point.

And what makes you an expert on casting?? The Japanese have a patently different sense of humor, of pathos and way of speaking. What may be a perfectly cast Japanese actor or actress would not necessarily carry the same impact as an American. So I reiterate, so you don't like the dubs, you can still legally purchase DVDs and NOT watch the dub.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. That still doesn't make THEFT any less illegal.

Get over yourself.

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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:46 pm

[quote=Tez]THEFT[/quote]

Theft involves person A getting something from Person B and person B no longer has it. Piracy is not theft. 1s and 0s are not destroyed. Person B still has the data. No proof can be made that person A would have purchased the product in the first place. No claim for lost revenue can be validly made in any valid logical sense.

This is all tangential to the matter at hand - in that the American dubbing industry has apparently failed to understand their consumer base and their products to the point that they have begun to lose revenue and have decided (like the MPAA and RIAA) to shift the blame from their own failings to their customer base. If this turns out to be the new official stance on the issue and not just the paranoid ramblings of one Voice Actor, then the industry is doomed to collapse. Without recognizing failures, they're not going to realize what the real problems in their accusation and marketing models are.
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Post by DanoruX » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:20 pm

[quote=Tez]
Do you honestly not know that DVD's include the sub as well as the dub, if they have the dub at all? Who cares that you don't like dubs? You can watch the DVDs in the original Japanese with the subs. Frankly, it is my personal experience that people who claim to watch only subs, actually watch the dubs when they think no one is looking. Maybe that's not you, but I'm just making a point.
[/quote]
You misunderstand - my point was just that you can skip the whole dubbing process when you create an internet service.

As for the latter part, I do occasionally check out dubs when I get my hands on DVDs, but rarely do I watch em longer than 2 minutes.

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Post by Tez » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:19 pm

First I want to apologize. Occasionally my passion for this incredibly beautiful and versatile art gets the better of my tongue (or in this case, fingers).

The issue here is not subtitles vs dubbed. I am with Greg Ayers on this issue, frankly I don't care what anyone prefers. I don't knock subs and I prefer people would be as magnanimous and not knock dubs, but I know I'm dreaming.

The real issue is legal versus illegal. It is illegal to puchase alchohol for minors, so I don't. It is illegal to drive drunk, so I don't. Cocaine is illegal so I don't buy it or take it. Theft is illegal, so I don't do it. This is the fulcrum on which this entire issue pivots. I wish everyone were as honest as I am. I once accidently walked out of a store with something I didn't pay for and when I realized it, I went right back in and paid for it even when it was obvious it had not been noticed and I could have gotten way with it.

Fansubbing and illegal downloads are just that, illegal. AND it is killing the JAPANESE Anime industry, not just American Dubs. If you want ANIME, any kind of Anime, in the future, this has to stop.

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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:28 pm

[quote=Tez]AND it is killing the JAPANESE Anime industry, not just American Dubs.[/quote]

Please explain. I'm fairly confident in my understanding of economics to not have a fracking clue as to how people from other countries watching free-to-air television programs (that can be captured by DVRs legally) hurts the Japanese market at all. What exactly causes the loss of revenue?
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Post by Tez » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:30 pm

[quote=BasharOfTheAges]

Theft involves person A getting something from Person B and person B no longer has it. Piracy is not theft. 1s and 0s are not destroyed. Person B still has the data. No proof can be made that person A would have purchased the product in the first place. No claim for lost revenue can be validly made in any valid logical sense.

This is all tangential to the matter at hand - in that the American dubbing industry has apparently failed to understand their consumer base and their products to the point that they have begun to lose revenue and have decided (like the MPAA and RIAA) to shift the blame from their own failings to their customer base. If this turns out to be the new official stance on the issue and not just the paranoid ramblings of one Voice Actor, then the industry is doomed to collapse. Without recognizing failures, they're not going to realize what the real problems in their accusation and marketing models are.[/quote]

At this point you are splitting hairs. It is theft. We are talking about the death of an industry because of lost revenues due to illegal piracy and distribution of someone else's property, be it physical or intellectual.

When will you people understand that we are NOT talking about the American Dubbing industry. We are talking about the Japanese Anime Industry. Imagine you're an artist and you create a fabulous comic that promises to be the next big title, like Superman or Spiderman, but before it is actually distributed for sale, someone steals it, scans it and distributes it on the internet for free to millions of people who download it and you never see a penny because the publisher can't sell a copy. That's theft.

You can justify it any way you like, if it allows you to sleep at night.

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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:38 pm

[quote=Tez]At this point you are splitting hairs. It is theft. We are talking about the death of an industry because of lost revenues due to illegal piracy and distribution of someone else's property, be it physical or intellectual.[/quote]

No, I'm not splitting hairs - in fact i'm using correct terminology whereas you are using propaganda laced with words we, as a society, have loaded with connotative meaning.

You can not prove loss of revenue at all. I'm not advocating piracy - just pointing out that people without money that wouldn't be purchasing anything can't be counted as loss of revenue for watching fansubs any more than someone that doesn't buy anything and instead watches borrowed DVDs from a friend. It's flawed, backwards logic that simply does not add up.
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Post by Larielle » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:56 pm

I didn't make it to the con on Friday this year but I remember Greg talked a bit about this issue at the actors' round table last year. I'm probably in a minority, but in my case if I watch one or two episodes (never more) of a fansubbed anime to see if I like the series I almost always buy at least the first DVD. I make a point of it. Some official sites (like many of FUNimation's) offer the first couple of episodes for free anyway. Unlike with American TV series, you can't "preview" most anime on cable before you lay down 30 bucks for the DVD.

The only other time I watch fansubs is when a series is unlicensed, and so far I've only watched an unlicensed series fansubbed in its entirety once, and I fully intend to buy the series when the DVDs are released in the U.S. =) It's good to support everyone (actors, artists, writers, directors, producers, animators, etc.) who was involved in making a series you love.

tl;dr I think it's important to make the distinction between "responsible" and "irresponsible" use of fansubs.

It kind of disturbs me how many fans don't bother to pay money for a series and watch it all online illegally. There's one kid in our anime club who reads all his manga online in the form of crappy scanlations and actually tries to defend his choice. LAME. :thumbdown:

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Post by DanoruX » Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:58 pm

[quote=Tez]First I want to apologize. Occasionally my passion for this incredibly beautiful and versatile art gets the better of my tongue (or in this case, fingers).

The issue here is not subtitles vs dubbed. I am with Greg Ayers on this issue, frankly I don't care what anyone prefers. I don't knock subs and I prefer people would be as magnanimous and not knock dubs, but I know I'm dreaming.

The real issue is legal versus illegal. It is illegal to puchase alchohol for minors, so I don't. It is illegal to drive drunk, so I don't. Cocaine is illegal so I don't buy it or take it. Theft is illegal, so I don't do it. This is the fulcrum on which this entire issue pivots. I wish everyone were as honest as I am. I once accidently walked out of a store with something I didn't pay for and when I realized it, I went right back in and paid for it even when it was obvious it had not been noticed and I could have gotten way with it.

Fansubbing and illegal downloads are just that, illegal. AND it is killing the JAPANESE Anime industry, not just American Dubs. If you want ANIME, any kind of Anime, in the future, this has to stop.[/quote]

Yes I agree that fansubs are illegal and I agree it's not good for the industry and that's why legal alternatives that have the same content at the same speed need to be made available. A good analogy would be that street racing (fansubs) is illegal, but for those who want to there are race circuits to drive fast on (Hulu.com style streaming content) while the rest of the population drive on normal roads (DVDs) or take cabs (rentals).

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Post by Larielle » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:15 pm

Limited time to edit posts = FAIL. Anyway, now that my post has been eaten... @.@

I'm sure it doesn't hurt for Greg (and others) to inform fans about the negative effects of fansubbing on the industry, but don't know how much of an effect it'll actually have. I doubt any amount of informing will curb the production or viewing of fansubs. With that much anime freely, instantly available to fans, the temptation is just too great for a lot of people. Unfortunately, that can have a negative impact on us law-abiding fans.

I don't know enough about the industry to back up or refute his claims for sure, but I have a strong suspicion that many of the figures people are claiming are exagerrated and/or misleading. Anime is an international industry worth at least hundreds of millions dollars, and bootlegging is inevitable in any industry. The music industry, which is absolutely colossal (and, granted, HUGELY larger than anime, but it's still a good comparison), loses money to illegal music downloads too. Probably a lot of money. But in both cases, there are still a huge number of consumers who pay for the goods legitimately.

I'm not trying to defend people who deal in bootlegs by any means, but it's important to keep things in perspective.

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Post by Tez » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:54 pm

[quote=BasharOfTheAges] No, I'm not splitting hairs - in fact i'm using correct terminology whereas you are using propaganda laced with words we, as a society, have loaded with connotative meaning.

You can not prove loss of revenue at all. I'm not advocating piracy - just pointing out that people without money that wouldn't be purchasing anything can't be counted as loss of revenue for watching fansubs any more than someone that doesn't buy anything and instead watches borrowed DVDs from a friend. It's flawed, backwards logic that simply does not add up.[/quote]

In the late 80s the Japanese Anime Industry faced a terrible recession because the Japanese audience moved away from Anime. Just as with mainstream TV shows in America, lack of viewer-ship, causes lack of sponsorship, causes lack of funds, causes slowed or stopped production. Shows went unfinished because the sponsors weren’t willing to back shows that would not have the viewers to see their commercials and purchase their products.

In the early 90s, in an effort supplement their slowing income, studios sold licenses to American companies to distribute Anime to the American TV audience. It worked. Americans fell in love for the first time, or were brought back to their pre-existing love of Anime. Some shows that had not done well in Japan received such acclaim in the American market (Big O, in example) that American money went to Japan to produce more episodes. This also had the benefit of bringing focus on some of these titles back to the Japanese viewers, renewing interest and viewer-ship, which translated to sponsorship which translated to income.

Since then, the Japanese Anime Industry has existed in a symbiotic relationship with the American Market. Shows that sold well here send funds to Japan to create more Anime.

An example of this is HellSing Ultimate, which was funded by money from the now defunct Geneon, defunct because it lost $40 mil last year. Anime Fandom in America has risen drastically in the past 6 years, a fact that can be witnessed just by the drastically increasing attendance at AnimeBoston each year, however, Anime Purchases have taken a nosedive.

But you don’t have to believe me. David Williams of ADV made it very clear in his panel on Saturday night that the fans have increased (giving us the visual of a line rising at a 45 degree angle), while purchasing has dropped by the same (giving us the visual of a line dropping at the same 45 degree angle).

Greg Ayers may be a voice actor, but he gave his bootlegging panel because, like most of us, he is a fan of Anime and does not want to see the industry die. Just take a look at AnimeNewsNetwork to see reports of studios declaring bankruptcy. Watch the Sogen-con panel video on YouTube to hear Crispin Freeman as well as Greg talk about the seriousness of this issue.

You can call it propaganda if you like and accuse me of using connotative language, but if you take the time to look into any of the above, you will find the truth.


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Post by DanoruX » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:05 pm

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Post by KitKat » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:28 pm

[quote=Tez][quote=BasharOfTheAges] No, I'm not splitting hairs - in fact i'm using correct terminology whereas you are using propaganda laced with words we, as a society, have loaded with connotative meaning.

You can not prove loss of revenue at all. I'm not advocating piracy - just pointing out that people without money that wouldn't be purchasing anything can't be counted as loss of revenue for watching fansubs any more than someone that doesn't buy anything and instead watches borrowed DVDs from a friend. It's flawed, backwards logic that simply does not add up.[/quote]

In the late 80s the Japanese Anime Industry faced a terrible recession because the Japanese audience moved away from Anime. Just as with mainstream TV shows in America, lack of viewer-ship, causes lack of sponsorship, causes lack of funds, causes slowed or stopped production. Shows went unfinished because the sponsors weren’t willing to back shows that would not have the viewers to see their commercials and purchase their products.

In the early 90s, in an effort supplement their slowing income, studios sold licenses to American companies to distribute Anime to the American TV audience. It worked. Americans fell in love for the first time, or were brought back to their pre-existing love of Anime. Some shows that had not done well in Japan received such acclaim in the American market (Big O, in example) that American money went to Japan to produce more episodes. This also had the benefit of bringing focus on some of these titles back to the Japanese viewers, renewing interest and viewer-ship, which translated to sponsorship which translated to income.

Since then, the Japanese Anime Industry has existed in a symbiotic relationship with the American Market. Shows that sold well here send funds to Japan to create more Anime.

An example of this is HellSing Ultimate, which was funded by money from the now defunct Geneon, defunct because it lost $40 mil last year. Anime Fandom in America has risen drastically in the past 6 years, a fact that can be witnessed just by the drastically increasing attendance at AnimeBoston each year, however, Anime Purchases have taken a nosedive.

But you don’t have to believe me. David Williams of ADV made it very clear in his panel on Saturday night that the fans have increased (giving us the visual of a line rising at a 45 degree angle), while purchasing has dropped by the same (giving us the visual of a line dropping at the same 45 degree angle).

Greg Ayers may be a voice actor, but he gave his bootlegging panel because, like most of us, he is a fan of Anime and does not want to see the industry die. Just take a look at AnimeNewsNetwork to see reports of studios declaring bankruptcy. Watch the Sogen-con panel video on YouTube to hear Crispin Freeman as well as Greg talk about the seriousness of this issue.

You can call it propaganda if you like and accuse me of using connotative language, but if you take the time to look into any of the above, you will find the truth.

[/quote]

...
./cheer!
I'm sick with Con plague, so thank you for putting it up so eloquently.

Also, might I add that.
If someone steals a car, and gives it to you, and you put it in your garage- it makes you an accessory after the fact. BOTH of you are charged for theft, not the one who stole the car in the first place.
So, logic tells us that if someone rips a series off of TV and lets thousands of people pirate it on the internet- they were all involved in the act of pirating the product. Not just the person who put it up there. There is a huge difference between borrowing or exchanging a friend's dvd and making sale in the states pretty much not very profitable because you decided that six months-two years was too long for the fans to ghave to wait to legally get it- or for the glory, or to mistranslate to mess with people, etc etc. (Also, their network TV is not free, so stop saying it is. They pay for it, period.)

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Post by jms » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:55 pm

If you steal a car, the owner no longer has that car.
If you download and watch a series, you're not taking the IP from the artist, that information still exists, and there are still people who are going to watch it on TV and/or buy it.

The problem isn't the fansubbers, it's the industry's inability to adapt to the wants and needs of it's customers. The fact that digisubs exist in such great numbers is proof positive that there is a massive niche that the industry apparently hasn't bothered filling in a way that makes the customers happy.

And enough with the car analogies, damn.

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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:25 am

[quote=Tez][quote=BasharOfTheAges] No, I'm not splitting hairs - in fact i'm using correct terminology whereas you are using propaganda laced with words we, as a society, have loaded with connotative meaning.

You can not prove loss of revenue at all. I'm not advocating piracy - just pointing out that people without money that wouldn't be purchasing anything can't be counted as loss of revenue for watching fansubs any more than someone that doesn't buy anything and instead watches borrowed DVDs from a friend. It's flawed, backwards logic that simply does not add up.[/quote]

In the late 80s the Japanese Anime Industry faced a terrible recession because the Japanese audience moved away from Anime. Just as with mainstream TV shows in America, lack of viewer-ship, causes lack of sponsorship, causes lack of funds, causes slowed or stopped production. Shows went unfinished because the sponsors weren’t willing to back shows that would not have the viewers to see their commercials and purchase their products.

In the early 90s, in an effort supplement their slowing income, studios sold licenses to American companies to distribute Anime to the American TV audience. It worked. Americans fell in love for the first time, or were brought back to their pre-existing love of Anime. Some shows that had not done well in Japan received such acclaim in the American market (Big O, in example) that American money went to Japan to produce more episodes. This also had the benefit of bringing focus on some of these titles back to the Japanese viewers, renewing interest and viewer-ship, which translated to sponsorship which translated to income.

Since then, the Japanese Anime Industry has existed in a symbiotic relationship with the American Market. Shows that sold well here send funds to Japan to create more Anime.

An example of this is HellSing Ultimate, which was funded by money from the now defunct Geneon, defunct because it lost $40 mil last year. Anime Fandom in America has risen drastically in the past 6 years, a fact that can be witnessed just by the drastically increasing attendance at AnimeBoston each year, however, Anime Purchases have taken a nosedive.

But you don’t have to believe me. David Williams of ADV made it very clear in his panel on Saturday night that the fans have increased (giving us the visual of a line rising at a 45 degree angle), while purchasing has dropped by the same (giving us the visual of a line dropping at the same 45 degree angle).[/quote]
Your explanation fails to take into account that the American dubbing industries lost all sense of quality by picking up tons of series that were doomed to failure from the very beginning just to simply build their portfolios. They dove into a niche market that was a novelty for a time, but has become so saturated that it cannot support it's own weight - especially with the economy the way it is.

I don't deny these industry figures have provided these figures. However, they have not proven a correlation between their proposed cause, fan subbing, and their financial troubles. Just because thing A and thing B both happen does not mean there is a correlation between the two. This is a fundamental truth of statistical research.

You have also failed to show how a rise in viewership of a series only airing on Japanese TV by people not in the country hurts the industry.

If you don't understand the economics behind it, please don't blindly follow the flawed logic they're feeding you. Think about what you're hearing and try to understand that the arguments don't actually add up. It is very common for a large industry to find scapegoats for their own failures. The RIAA has been doing it for years. I though the Anime industry too small to stoop to that level and insult their fans that much, but I guess my faith has been somewhat misplaced.
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Post by KitKat » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:50 am

[quote=jms]If you steal a car, the owner no longer has that car.
If you download and watch a series, you're not taking the IP from the artist, that information still exists, and there are still people who are going to watch it on TV and/or buy it.

The problem isn't the fansubbers, it's the industry's inability to adapt to the wants and needs of it's customers. The fact that digisubs exist in such great numbers is proof positive that there is a massive niche that the industry apparently hasn't bothered filling in a way that makes the customers happy.

And enough with the car analogies, damn.[/quote]

No, your not completely taking it away from them. But you dont seem to be grasping that its the potential for selling it that your taking away from them. If they cant make a profit off of producing anime, they wont make it anymore.

Casual viwers on cartoon network, etc. wont ever buy the DVDs, and most people who go past that know about fansubs and where to get them. Leaving the majority of sales the lisences sold to the TV companies. While that does mak a profit, its not a huge enough market to motivate more Anime to be made.

And for the record, I do agree that there needs to be made an equal or better legal equivelent. HOWEVER- just because it EXISTS, does not mean you have a right to see it.

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Post by Michiyoyoshiku » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:06 am

[quote=NanamiAsagi][quote=Michiyoyoshiku]and just what are we supposed to do about Sailor Moon and Hokoto no Ken?

Toei are notrous horders and ask all sorts of Unresonable requests where their properties are concerned.
[/quote]

Just to directly address this- in this situation, you're supposed to respect the fact that a company or creator may not want to share their materials. I honestly don't know where this idea of entitlement comes from with anime fans- just because it exists doesn't mean you have some unalienable right to see it.

[/quote]

Yes we do deal with it.

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Post by Kiarrens » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:10 am

[quote=Tez]
Do you honestly not know that DVD's include the sub as well as the dub, if they have the dub at all? Who cares that you don't like dubs? You can watch the DVDs in the original Japanese with the subs.
[/quote]
Unless, of course, the American company sells DVDs with only the American dub on them.
*cough One Piece* *cough Groove Adventure dance (no seriously, it's a dance. Stop trying to bypass the word filter.)*

*edit: had to put the periods in the R word because apparantly the forum changes it to "dance," lol.
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Post by Michiyoyoshiku » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:44 am

Maybe if the companies LISTENED TO US and give us what we ask for and look at what fan subs have over
what they over charge us for We'd buy more anime.

But of course it's way easy to blame the fans than blame yourself.

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Post by jms » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:34 am

[quote=KitKat][quote=jms]If you steal a car, the owner no longer has that car.
If you download and watch a series, you're not taking the IP from the artist, that information still exists, and there are still people who are going to watch it on TV and/or buy it.

The problem isn't the fansubbers, it's the industry's inability to adapt to the wants and needs of it's customers. The fact that digisubs exist in such great numbers is proof positive that there is a massive niche that the industry apparently hasn't bothered filling in a way that makes the customers happy.

And enough with the car analogies, damn.[/quote]

No, your not completely taking it away from them. But you dont seem to be grasping that its the potential for selling it that your taking away from them. If they cant make a profit off of producing anime, they wont make it anymore.

Casual viwers on cartoon network, etc. wont ever buy the DVDs, and most people who go past that know about fansubs and where to get them. Leaving the majority of sales the lisences sold to the TV companies. While that does mak a profit, its not a huge enough market to motivate more Anime to be made.

And for the record, I do agree that there needs to be made an equal or better legal equivelent. HOWEVER- just because it EXISTS, does not mean you have a right to see it.[/quote]See, you're assuming people who watch on TV won't buy the DVD, but also that people who want subs WILL buy the DVD, but because of fansubs, they don't have to. Do you not see the gaping hole in this logic? You can't assume that someone who prefers subs is automatically going to buy the DVD. But why would someone buy a DVD of a show that they can watch for free on TV? I prefer is subtitled, and can easily access it subtitled, as free as the ones on TV here.

And please, no "hurf durf TV isn't free!" crap. Yeah I pay for cable, yeah I can watch tons of shows on TV and on-demand, but for all intents and purposes, I consider watching something on cable basically free.


[quote=BasharOfTheAges]You have also failed to show how a rise in viewership of a series only airing on Japanese TV by people not in the country hurts the industry.[/quote] QFT

And as far as scapegoats go, the 3000-person increase in attendance this year at AB is comparable to the anime industry blaming losses on fansubs. Did the 3000 people make the lines a little slower? Maybe. Would there still have been a problem without those 3000 people? Absolutely. Same with fansubbers. Are they making some impact on the industry? Maybe a small one of people downloading licensed shows AFTER DVD releases here. If there were completely eradicated, would there still be a problem? Of course there would. Fansubs aren't killing the industry, they're doing that themselves by not admitting their mistakes, and blaming fans for their economic failures. Fansubs are not the root of all evil, and probably have a marginal impact on the industry if any at all, getting rid of them wouldn't make everything sunshine and lollipops in the anime industry. If anything, I'd always thought fansubs HELPED the industry by showing what is popular outside of japan, as well as giving many people a taste and getting hooked. In the same way it's silly to automatically assume fansub watchers would otherwise buy DVDs, it's silly to assume they WOULDN'T buy them.

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Post by NanamiAsagi » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:35 am

[quote=Michiyoyoshiku][quote=NanamiAsagi][quote=Michiyoyoshiku]and just what are we supposed to do about Sailor Moon and Hokoto no Ken?

Toei are notrous horders and ask all sorts of Unresonable requests where their properties are concerned.
[/quote]

Just to directly address this- in this situation, you're supposed to respect the fact that a company or creator may not want to share their materials. I honestly don't know where this idea of entitlement comes from with anime fans- just because it exists doesn't mean you have some unalienable right to see it.

[/quote]

Yes we do deal with it. [/quote]

...no, you don't, and the fact that you just said that makes me more certain than I ever had been that you are just a spoiled child. It is the artist's right to withhold their material, you have NO RIGHT to get it if they don't want you to have it. Seriously...your arguments are ridiculous and immature.


Tez, thanks for coming in on this. And BasharOfTheAges, again- before you argue this at least read the first post in stopfansubs. Come on- the information is there for you to read. Bring up new points or just stop trying to argue this issue.

>> You have also failed to show how a rise in viewership of a series only airing on Japanese TV by people not in the country hurts the industry.

Because supporting fansub groups means they'll fansub MORE SHOWS and people will continue not buying EVEN WHEN THE SHOWS ARE AVAILABLE IN THE US. Yes, I understand why you're having problems seeing why watching a fansub of an unlicensed series is still hurting the industry, but you have to understand that you're supporting fansubbers (not monetarily, but by making them feel popular) who will sub shows even WHEN THEY ARE LICENSED.

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Post by jms » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:42 am

[quote=NanamiAsagi][quote=Michiyoyoshiku][quote=NanamiAsagi][quote=Michiyoyoshiku]and just what are we supposed to do about Sailor Moon and Hokoto no Ken?

Toei are notrous horders and ask all sorts of Unresonable requests where their properties are concerned.
[/quote]

Just to directly address this- in this situation, you're supposed to respect the fact that a company or creator may not want to share their materials. I honestly don't know where this idea of entitlement comes from with anime fans- just because it exists doesn't mean you have some unalienable right to see it.

[/quote]

Yes we do deal with it. [/quote]

...no, you don't, and the fact that you just said that makes me more certain than I ever had been that you are just a spoiled child. It is the artist's right to withhold their material, you have NO RIGHT to get it if they don't want you to have it. Seriously...your arguments are ridiculous and immature.


Tez, thanks for coming in on this. And BasharOfTheAges, again- before you argue this at least read the first post in stopfansubs. Come on- the information is there for you to read. Bring up new points or just stop trying to argue this issue.

>> You have also failed to show how a rise in viewership of a series only airing on Japanese TV by people not in the country hurts the industry.

Because supporting fansub groups means they'll fansub MORE SHOWS and people will continue not buying EVEN WHEN THE SHOWS ARE AVAILABLE IN THE US. Yes, I understand why you're having problems seeing why watching a fansub of an unlicensed series is still hurting the industry, but you have to understand that you're supporting fansubbers (not monetarily, but by making them feel popular) who will sub shows even WHEN THEY ARE LICENSED.[/quote]
You are aware that people who really like shows will still buy the DVDs when they're released, right? And that people who just casually watch the shows and would never buy the DVDs would have never bought the DVD anyway, right?

As for the artists controlling where something goes, that's all well and good until it's put out over-the-air and can be snatched up by anyone. They lost all control when that happens.

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Post by KitKat » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:45 am

[quote=jms][quote=KitKat][quote=jms]If you steal a car, the owner no longer has that car.
If you download and watch a series, you're not taking the IP from the artist, that information still exists, and there are still people who are going to watch it on TV and/or buy it.

The problem isn't the fansubbers, it's the industry's inability to adapt to the wants and needs of it's customers. The fact that digisubs exist in such great numbers is proof positive that there is a massive niche that the industry apparently hasn't bothered filling in a way that makes the customers happy.

And enough with the car analogies, damn.[/quote]

No, your not completely taking it away from them. But you dont seem to be grasping that its the potential for selling it that your taking away from them. If they cant make a profit off of producing anime, they wont make it anymore.

Casual viwers on cartoon network, etc. wont ever buy the DVDs, and most people who go past that know about fansubs and where to get them. Leaving the majority of sales the lisences sold to the TV companies. While that does mak a profit, its not a huge enough market to motivate more Anime to be made.

And for the record, I do agree that there needs to be made an equal or better legal equivelent. HOWEVER- just because it EXISTS, does not mean you have a right to see it.[/quote]See, you're assuming people who watch on TV won't buy the DVD, but also that people who want subs WILL buy the DVD, but because of fansubs, they don't have to. Do you not see the gaping hole in this logic? You can't assume that someone who prefers subs is automatically going to buy the DVD. But why would someone buy a DVD of a show that they can watch for free on TV? I prefer is subtitled, and can easily access it subtitled, as free as the ones on TV here.

And please, no "hurf durf TV isn't free!" crap. Yeah I pay for cable, yeah I can watch tons of shows on TV and on-demand, but for all intents and purposes, I consider watching something on cable basically free.[/quote]


No, I'm saying that a lot of the things that are popular fansubs wouldnt BE on TV here (or are here having been very drastically edited), so the other option is renting or buying DVDs. They cant market it here because they cant get it on TV (If you hadnt noticed the mainstream population doesnt want all of our TV channels populated by Anime) and otherwise DVD sales are too low to spend all that time and money lisencing it in america.

And you buying cable is still putting money in the system. Regardless of weather or not YOU consider it "basically free" you are still helping support the production companies by watching cable (and commercials)

Oh, and honestly? How many people do you know who have massive collections of pirates shows, fansubs, on their computer- who LOVE a specific series they have, go out and buy the DVD ones its lisenced in the US?
Not very many, because they already have the pirated material on their computer. They dont need the DVD because they already have the show.

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Post by Amjam » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:01 pm

[quote=Kiarrens]
*edit: had to put the periods in the R word because apparantly the forum changes it to "dance," lol.[/quote]
[color:#556B2F]
Haha, Patrick did change it. :-) that brought a smile to my face after reading all this.[/color]

[quote=Michiyoyoshiku]Maybe if the companies LISTENED TO US and give us what we ask for and look at what fan subs have over
what they over charge us for We'd buy more anime.
[/quote]

[color:#556B2F]This bothers me on both of those; what DO fansubs have over the legal release? The legal side has amazingly better quality, a better (read: professional and done by more than one person, each of those people happening to be professionals rather than a college student with a semester of JAP I) translation, extras, options, and even those fun little survey cards that you can fill out and send in. Not to mention it's legal, which is a good thing in itself.

And, well, dayum. It always floors me to see the "Overcharging" argument. Did you read the page? Please, please, read Stop Fansubs or check out even one part of Greg's panel, because people have been over this already. I haven't even read the Stop Fansubs post or seen the Sogen Con panel and I can respond to this.
-> The average ANIME DVD in Japan right now costs the equivalent of $60, with ONE episode on it.
-> Here, we get 3, sometimes 4 or 5 episodes for $25-$30.
-> I'm a younger member of the fandom, but if not one of the old school fans here remembers paying $30-$40 for two eps of an anime on VHS I will be very upset.
-> How much do you think Akira was when it first came out?
-> Currently, as in right now, Volume 1 of the Fullmetal Alchemist manga is ¥ 1.221 ($12.25) on Amazon JP. It's $9.99 for us.
-> The popular show - which no doubt has fansubs available too - called "Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei" is twelve episodes long. That's three or four DVDs with three or four episodes each. You know how much it costs for one volume in Japan? ¥5.284, $53 here. Our prices aren't perfect, but compared to the state of the Japanese... well that's half as much.[/color]

[quote=Kiarrens]Unless, of course, the American company sells DVDs with only the American dub on them.
*cough One Piece* *cough Groove Adventure dance (no seriously, it's a dance. Stop trying to bypass the word filter.)*
[/quote]
[color:#556B2F]=D To explore the magic of patience again, I believe the new FuniMation One Piece production is rereleasing the first DVDs with dual language format sometime soon.
Not much you or I can do about Groove Adventure Rayve but some things you just can't get. The funny thing is~ I don't know that title. What company owned/dubbed it and when did it come out? The only dub-only discs I own are Pokémon and one set of Robotech (Macross) @_@ It's becoming less frequent or disappearing entirely anyway; if anything, I'd say there are more sub-only releases.


Speaking of which:
For fellow fans of BOTH languages, another by-product of all the theft; People don't buy it, not enough money goes into it, they can't afford to dub everything so some niche titles or genres (Shonen-ai stuff has been hit particularly hard by this) comes out as a Japanese dub-only release.[/color]
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Post by jms » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:09 pm

[quote=KitKat][quote=jms][quote=KitKat][quote=jms]If you steal a car, the owner no longer has that car.
If you download and watch a series, you're not taking the IP from the artist, that information still exists, and there are still people who are going to watch it on TV and/or buy it.

The problem isn't the fansubbers, it's the industry's inability to adapt to the wants and needs of it's customers. The fact that digisubs exist in such great numbers is proof positive that there is a massive niche that the industry apparently hasn't bothered filling in a way that makes the customers happy.

And enough with the car analogies, damn.[/quote]

No, your not completely taking it away from them. But you dont seem to be grasping that its the potential for selling it that your taking away from them. If they cant make a profit off of producing anime, they wont make it anymore.

Casual viwers on cartoon network, etc. wont ever buy the DVDs, and most people who go past that know about fansubs and where to get them. Leaving the majority of sales the lisences sold to the TV companies. While that does mak a profit, its not a huge enough market to motivate more Anime to be made.

And for the record, I do agree that there needs to be made an equal or better legal equivelent. HOWEVER- just because it EXISTS, does not mean you have a right to see it.[/quote]See, you're assuming people who watch on TV won't buy the DVD, but also that people who want subs WILL buy the DVD, but because of fansubs, they don't have to. Do you not see the gaping hole in this logic? You can't assume that someone who prefers subs is automatically going to buy the DVD. But why would someone buy a DVD of a show that they can watch for free on TV? I prefer is subtitled, and can easily access it subtitled, as free as the ones on TV here.

And please, no "hurf durf TV isn't free!" crap. Yeah I pay for cable, yeah I can watch tons of shows on TV and on-demand, but for all intents and purposes, I consider watching something on cable basically free.[/quote]


No, I'm saying that a lot of the things that are popular fansubs wouldnt BE on TV here (or are here having been very drastically edited), so the other option is renting or buying DVDs. They cant market it here because they cant get it on TV (If you hadnt noticed the mainstream population doesnt want all of our TV channels populated by Anime) and otherwise DVD sales are too low to spend all that time and money lisencing it in america.[/quote]
Or in the case of a fansub viewer, borrowing a friends DVD, possibly renting, downloading R1 rips illegally, or just flat out not watching. Do you really, truly, honestly believe that all 417993 people that downloaded last week's Naruto fansub would just buy the DVD as soon as it became available, had a fansubs not been made? Are you starting to see the light? People who are going to buy a show on DVD are going to buy it because they like it and want a real physical copy with box art and extras and etc, and to support the industry, even if they've watched the whole thing illegally.
And the people who watch the whole thing without buying the DVDs, never would have bought them, ever.

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Post by KitKat » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:32 pm

There is no light to see. Pirating is wrong, and a form of theft.

While not all of the people dowloading fansubs would buy the series, if the fansubs didn't exist there would be people to buy the dvds.
And Naruto is a really poor example, because it's airing on TV in the states.
This is one of those places where Anime fans feel that they are entitled to watch it just because it exists, even though they could wait to see it.

(The defence that they were watching it before it came to TV in the states is no defence, because in watching it before it was availabl here they were in fact starting the pirating process with shows like that. I guess once a theif always a theif- huh?)

I have already conceeded that there needs to be an effort on Japan's end to make it available faster and more conveniently legally here. However- I want it but its not around so I'll steal it (Or pirate it, since your so picky about the terms) in stead is never a mentality that I will agree with or adopt myself.

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Post by jms » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:49 pm

[quote=KitKat]There is no light to see. Pirating is wrong, and a form of theft.[/quote]
VVVVOOOOMMMMMMM!
That's the sound of the point flying over your head.

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Post by KitKat » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:55 pm

no, honestly? I'm not going to be convinced by you that fansubs have no impact on the industry, and your not going to be convinced by me that fansubbing is wrong and you shouldnt support it.
This THREAD is about Greg Ayres spreading the word about the affect of fansubs on the industry.
I happen to support that mentality, and you dont and wont even conceed that some of the points here are valid.

Stubbornly trying to convince us all that we are wrong and you are right is not productive for either you or I. So, all I can do is bluntly state my stance for you so you might get the idea that your arguments and efforts are getting you no where, as I understand that with certain people mine wont either.

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Post by jms » Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:11 pm

Because nobody has provided any valid proof that fansubs directly affect the industry. Just propaganda trying to divert attention onto a scapegoat instead of bringing to light the failings of the industry itself.
All 'proof' of how fansubs are hurting the industry are nothing more than assumptions that every person who downloads a fansub will now NEVER buy a DVD or watch on TV because they've already seen it. It's flawed logic and propaganda, and you fell for it.

And it's fine to believe piracy and bootlegging is wrong, I'm of the same opinion, especially about bootlegging. But both of those are _separate_ from fansubs.

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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:13 pm

[quote=jms]And the people who watch the whole thing without buying the DVDs, never would have bought them, ever.[/quote]

Until you can prove this statement incorrect we're not getting anywhere. What is lost when people who were not going to buy something still do not buy? Being bitter because people were entertained for free is not the same as loosing revenue.
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Post by KitKat » Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:14 pm

Except when it goes beyond products unlisenced in the US.
There are lots of shows that are lisenced aleady have fansubs available online, making it piracy.

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Post by Kiarrens » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:06 pm

[quote=KitKat]
Oh, and honestly? How many people do you know who have massive collections of pirates shows, fansubs, on their computer- who LOVE a specific series they have, go out and buy the DVD ones its lisenced in the US?
Not very many, because they already have the pirated material on their computer. They dont need the DVD because they already have the show.[/quote]
*raises hand meekly*
I have the following in both fansub and DVD:
Kare Kano
ALL of FMA
Chrono Crusade
Gravitation
RahXephon
I CAN'T WAIT for the DVD releases of Ouran and Romeo X Juliet, I'll be snapping those up as SOON as they hit the market.

I realize that not all people who download fansubs are like me, and actually buy the stuff on DVD, but most of my friends are the same way as I am... so we DO exist. :X
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Post by Vu » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:11 pm

[quote=jms]Because nobody has provided any valid proof that fansubs directly affect the industry. Just propaganda trying to divert attention onto a scapegoat instead of bringing to light the failings of the industry itself.[/quote]
So statements do not count anymore?

Here's Arthur Smith's Interview, who is the president of G.D.H. International, back on November 21st, 2007.
His Open Letter on December 13th, 2007.
An interview with Gen Fukunaga, FUNimation's CEO, on January 21st, 2008.

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Greg Ayres bootleg panel

Post by Gollum » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:18 pm

[quote=Vu][quote=jms]Because nobody has provided any valid proof that fansubs directly affect the industry. Just propaganda trying to divert attention onto a scapegoat instead of bringing to light the failings of the industry itself.[/quote]
So statements do not count anymore?

Here's Arthur Smith's Interview, who is the president of G.D.H. International, back on November 21st, 2007.
His Open Letter on December 13th, 2007.
An interview with Gen Fukunaga, FUNimation's CEO, on January 21st, 2008.

Internetting is fun![/quote]

And here is An article where Japan asks the US to help them fight illegal downloads

So obviously this isn't just the opinion of the American distributors.

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Post by Vu » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:27 pm

Ah, yes! I knew I was forgetting one very important article. Thanks for that catch, Gollum!
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Post by Amjam » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:36 pm

[color:#556B2F]One thing that isn't helping this cause is the fact that a lot of major websites will pussyfoot around the matter for fear of angering either side. Not to rail on ANN, but in their articles specifically (Remember the AJ ones?) I've noticed it: people are trying to step on this thin ice delicately so they don't get their feet wet and cause everything to go up in flames. However, this attitude just leads more people to rationalize away fansubbing, downloading, bootlegging, and illegal filesharing of any kind and doesn't help inform people of the damage they're doing. Some forums won't even let you mention it - I've seen threads locked or deleted immediately in interest of "keeping the peace". It's nice to know we can have a debate in some places without knocking down the walls. Everyone here has been at least reasonably civil and I'm glad to see there hasn't been a rash of name-calling or flaming.
Doesn't mean I support the d/l-ers' opinions more, but I respect your intelligence and that you'll present your views reasonably. This is what a discussion forum should probably look like; mutual respect even if there's some hostility or disagreement.

Ha, useless comment. Just reflecting after being on some other discussion pages of the same nature.[/color]
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Post by KitKat » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:37 pm

Honestly, some people dont take an aweful lot as 'proof'
If you dont want to believe anything another person says thats against something you say, you can call it propaganda to make it sound completely scewed in orfder to justify not believing it.
People dont want any blame of things going wrong, so they call contributing factors to issues- excuses.
(Like, hey! The world is going through a rapid climate change because we polute the air too much! "Oh, no, my truck doesnt have an emissions issue. Global Warming is a lie!"
I'm sorry, I forgot, no one likes analogies for some reason. I cant even compare a pirating issue in another industry to this one without being told my point is completely invalid (which it is not))

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Post by jms » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:14 pm

[quote=Kiarrens][quote=KitKat]
Oh, and honestly? How many people do you know who have massive collections of pirates shows, fansubs, on their computer- who LOVE a specific series they have, go out and buy the DVD ones its lisenced in the US?
Not very many, because they already have the pirated material on their computer. They dont need the DVD because they already have the show.[/quote]
*raises hand meekly*
I have the following in both fansub and DVD:
Kare Kano
ALL of FMA
Chrono Crusade
Gravitation
RahXephon
I CAN'T WAIT for the DVD releases of Ouran and Romeo X Juliet, I'll be snapping those up as SOON as they hit the market.

I realize that not all people who download fansubs are like me, and actually buy the stuff on DVD, but most of my friends are the same way as I am... so we DO exist. :X[/quote]Yeah, actually most of my friends who are into anime and watch fansubs actually own a lot of DVDs.

[quote=Amjam][color:#556B2F]It's nice to know we can have a debate in some places without knocking down the walls. Everyone here has been at least reasonably civil and I'm glad to see there hasn't been a rash of name-calling or flaming.
Doesn't mean I support the d/l-ers' opinions more, but I respect your intelligence and that you'll present your views reasonably. This is what a discussion forum should probably look like; mutual respect even if there's some hostility or disagreement.

Ha, useless comment. Just reflecting after being on some other discussion pages of the same nature.[/color][/quote]
It is nice when things don't just devolve into flame-wars for no reason :)

[quote="a few people"]Some informative links to interviews and such[/quote]
There is no denying that people who decide that they are simply not going to buy a dvd, and instead download an illegal rip of it just because they can, are causing a loss, but only when the intent to purchase was there in the first place. And yes, there is no denying that when Hong Kong bootleggers download fansubs and stick them on a DVD and sell them on ebay, it's hurting the industry. One would have to be a fool to say that bootlegging, and illegal downloads beating out intent to buy, are not hurting the industry.
I am arguing for fansubs. Fansubs of unlicensed shows which won't be available here anytime soon, if ever. Aside from it being illegal, I still fail to see how it hurts the industry to download an unlicensed fansub.

As for the decline of DVD sales, like Bashar said, it couldn't possibly be due to the industry grossly overestimating their customer base, nor could it possibly be the decline in the economy. No, it must be those evil fansubbers.

And so I don't come off like too much of a pirate, I often find myself buying anime and manga as gifts for other people fairly often, and I intend to buy a number of shows as soon as I'm able to get them each in one big box set. Aside from One Piece, which I already have season 1 pre-ordered. :)

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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:08 pm

I am also not advocating piracy or bootlegging or saying they're good things at all. I'm saying that the arguments are flawed and not backed up with proof. Just because the Japanese companies say it's true and leave it at that (even if they believe it) doesn't make it fact. The economy is a major factor that isn't being addressed - as is poor estimating for interest.

We're not getting anywhere here if nobody realizes that just because people believe something doesn't make it true.

In the end we can only be responsible (and accountable) for ourselves. If I (i'm using myself as an example, but i don't necessarily have these opinions) don't have the money to purchase a DVD and will not, i'm not a loss to the company as i would not have purchased anything in the first place. If I borrow a DVD, The company is not getting money and I am still watching the DVD. My question - how is this different than watching a fansub?

Note - that last question is rhetorical, because i know it's just going to be sidestepped anyway. The RIAA hasn't been able to answer this question for years as it destroys the crux of their argument. The same applies here.
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Post by lordshamus » Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:36 pm

I can only speak for myself. I buy lots of anime on DVD, and I watch a lot of fansubs. The American anime industry, lest we forget, is based on fansubs. Ask the guys at ADV what they were doing before ADV was a company, for example.

I understand times change, but to say that the biggest problems in the industry are the fansubbers is to be remarkably shortsighted. After all, people in Japan watch anime on TV without buying the DVDs as a matter of course, so it is much more appropriate to say that it is in fact AD REVENUE that is being "lost", not DVD revenue. Anime as an industry *IN AMERICA* does not make an appreciable amount of it's money through TV advertising right now. It makes it through DVD sales. I have friends in the distribution side of the business who are doing absolutely fine right now, because they work for companies that did not do stupid stuff. The American Anime industry has had woes, but they were due to over-licensing and stupid decisions on the part of the industry, not college kids torrenting a bunch of shows. I think it is safe to say that my occasional downloading of "Sexy Commando" is not what's preventing Greg from becoming a millionaire.

Anime companies in Japan sometimes make the mistake of being too greedy, and anime companies in America sometimes make the mistake of being too stupid. If the industry reacts and is nimble, and delivers what the people want, the way they want it, it will prosper. If they don't, it deserves what it gets. I LOVE ANIME AND ANIME COMPANIES. I just don't think it's my job to fellate them constantly and unquestioningly do whatever they tell me is best for anime.

tl;dr - fansubs good, bah on kids today and their anti-fansub activism and flying skateboards and whatnot.
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