Greg Ayres bootleg panel

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Post by KitKat » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:26 pm

[quote=lordshamus]I think it is safe to say that my occasional downloading of "Sexy Commando" is not what's preventing Greg from becoming a millionaire.[/quote]

Greg isn't TRYING to become a millionair, if we werent a voice actor he'd be making a LOT more money in a normal job. He does it because he loves it an is such a huge anime fan. (Try actually watching the pannel)

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Post by Michiyoyoshiku » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:40 pm

With all my complaining please bear in mind I DO buy a great deal of anime.

Anyways things fansubs have over releases.

varying colors of sub title font which add more character to what's being said. Cultural notes and almost all of them have theme some karaoke.

The Lucky Star subs were a joy to watch becuase of these touches.

Now will I buy lucky star after watching the fan subs?

Absolutely when there's box set though also depends on the DVD extras as well.

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Post by KitKat » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:55 pm

You cant have those things in an actual DVD, it doesnt meet the requirements of having the label.
(all the little things aside from different color fonts are available in the 'extras' section of a DVD)

Once again... explained in the pannel.

How many of those who are arguing for fansubs have actually at least watched the whole thing on youtube?
Because I'm trying to actually be informed as much as I can so you have someone who has actually tried to understand it to debate with.

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Post by lordshamus » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:56 pm

[quote=KitKat][quote=lordshamus]I think it is safe to say that my occasional downloading of "Sexy Commando" is not what's preventing Greg from becoming a millionaire.[/quote]

Greg isn't TRYING to become a millionair, if we werent a voice actor he'd be making a LOT more money in a normal job. He does it because he loves it an is such a huge anime fan. (Try actually watching the pannel)[/quote]


You do recognize the irony of pointing out to me that someone is doing something for the anime fan community simply because they love it, right? I mean, at least Greg gets paid.

In any case, I am not suggesting that Greg does what he does because he is attempting to become wealthy. I am simply saying that watching a fansub of some unlicensed show, in this case "Sexy Commando", will have exactly *zero* effect on somebody in the American anime industry. I am very familiar with the Ayres brothers' opinions on fansubs, and it is a place where we disagree, but that certainly doesn't mean we all don't love anime as an art. One of the reasons I think that even though I disagree with Greg, I still respect his opinion is because he was led to get a job in anime *because* he loved it, so don't think I'm bashing him as a dude, because I'm not.

And I would have been thrilled to attend the panel and participate in a lovely open forum, but I was somewhat indisposed during every single event all weekend. I hope you understand. I still watched a tape of the thing, pirated of course. ^_^
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Post by KitKat » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:59 pm

Its not pirated if there is no copyrighted material being broadcast for free.
No one expected to get any money off of the pannel, it took no money (maybe some time) to bring to a con. So- not pirated. And you implied that Greg was doing it to save his career or make money off it it (weather or not you meant it, thats how it came across)
I had to rebutt it, since I know that it isn't the case at all.

And if those of us who are trying to explain why we (and most of the industry) believes fan subs are detrimental to the industry turn out to be right lots of people will be affected in the american anime industry.

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Post by lordshamus » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:19 pm

[quote=KitKat]Its not pirated if there is no copyrighted material being broadcast for free.
No one expected to get any money off of the pannel, it took no money (maybe some time) to bring to a con. So- not pirated. And you implied that Greg was doing it to save his career or make money off it it (weather or not you meant it, thats how it came across)
I had to rebutt it, since I know that it isn't the case at all.

And if those of us who are trying to explain why we (and most of the industry) believes fan subs are detrimental to the industry turn out to be right lots of people will be affected in the american anime industry.[/quote]

Did everybody shown in that YouTube Video sign a release form? Did the staff give permission to have the panel posted online in it's entirety?

I'm being hyperbolic, of course. I am simply pointing out that the definition of what is and is not "piracy" is a subject open to discussion. Therefore, we should confine our discussion of whether people should or should not watch fansubs to a discussion of whether it is verifiable that ALL fansubs hurt the industry. I am clearly not saying that it's okay to download a bunch of stuff that is available on DVD. I just think Greg goes WAAAAY too far in his outright condemnation of all fan-subtitled stuff, especially considering that if it had not been for fansubs he would not currently have a job. We need to walk a fine line of grey in the middle, or anime fandom will be ruined. The Anime Fandom is perilously close to an over-industrialized, super-sanitized mainstreaming that will render it nothing at all like the medium we all fell in love with. Total compliance with every single rule on the planet would mean no fansubs, no parodies, no music videos, and perhaps no fan art of licensed characters. In short, it would ruin the fandom. The fandom does not exist to service the industry, the industry exists to service the fandom. I'm just calling for a bit of moderation. I assure you, if the American Anime apparatus is close to collapse, which it is not, by the way, it would not be due to some malign influence that fansubs exert over the market.
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Post by H. Guderian » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:08 am

[quote=KitKat]Its not pirated if there is no copyrighted material being broadcast for free.
[/quote]

Heeey, if you show a video of that panel, you're costing conventions money! Everyone who viewed the panel online now will not attend the convention and give money to the industry! Because downloads = DVD sales, right, In this case these panels are meant for the conventions and thus the con loses money!

Like the kid who downloaded 50,000 songs durig the Napster days! Yeah, a kid was really gonna afford 50,000 songs, even at modern iTunes prices thats $50,000!

I don't think enough credit is given to those arguing about the market itself. Someone linked that Piracy & PC Gaming article, I trust you've all read that too. I watched greg's panel, I liked points, but it not the final answer.

You can't solve an entire industry slump by making
one half just feel guilty. I believe there are a few people that won't buy their DVDs due to fansubs, yes. But I also believe its far negated by the ability for people to preveiw shows before watching. I tend to see all of a movie before I buy it, not just the opening. Smae with buying shows domestically.


ALSO, half(exaggeration) the things in the panel resulted in complaining about licenses, or entrenched industry habits that don't work. You won't stop the fansubs as large in numbers as they are, especially without changing how the industry operates. People mentioned so many problems, DVDs can't do this, or that. They can't get the rights, some creators hoarde things, some quality here or there is better.

If the industry is screwed up and the fans obviously abandoned it, perhaps a change of tactics? They're trying new things, yes, we should perhaps wait and see how their 'legal' download sources will work first before this civil war errupts.

Also, until the anime rights are picked up here in the states, the laws set down by Japan's government have very little sway over here. They can prosecute people in their own country pirating, because its illegal, but the reason they need to ask the US for help in hunting down fansubbers is because their own government doesn't exceed their borders, thus the law doesn't apply in traditional respects. Worth a note. If the anime doesn't have its rights picked up, its perfectly fair game. Unethical, but fair game.

And yes I read the articles and watched the panel. I also buy box sets when they come out for shows I want.

This industry will continue to see trouble with or without fansubs, and could feasibly be worse off without fansubs. Why, I bought a little figure the other day of a show still airing in Japan thats relatively new. That sale surely would have been missed otherwise.

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Post by KitKat » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:23 am

Are you implying that people only go to conventions fo one spcific panell?
Honestly, the convention for that year has already past so it being online does no harm and even if there are repeated pannels at AB I go every year because of the experience- not because I want to see one specific panel. I dont think I know anyone who cant find something to do at a con (unless its REALLY late at night and they dont dance) in place of one panel.

...
no money lost.

(Plus, money into a convention goes towards the convention continuing- not automatically the industry, not everyong goes to cons to spend all their money in the dealers room. I have a few friends who only buy things in artists' alley. going to a con does not automatically mean money for the industry)

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Post by H. Guderian » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:15 am

Just a little playful banter. THough I could argue for tiny boring details on that. I know both sides are pretty entrenched. Personally awed how the thread hasn't really broken down to peices.

Anyways, if you take fansubs away you have to have a system to replace it. Let's see what the industry comes up with. I do know a few people who don't buy any anime at all and get the fansubbed episode the day it comes out. Merely denying that type without the fansub isn't going to help. We've really gotta let the anime industry on both sides of the ocean come up with their solutions and get them out the door. We know they're working on it for a few shows, but lets consider that model in its infancy and wait and see. Persecuting fansubs won't help in that, and I see the industry changing much more than the general population. If all these people don't care in the end, its unlikely you'll get them to change with concessions.

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Post by Amjam » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:52 pm

[quote=Michiyoyoshiku]things fansubs have over releases.
varying colors of sub title font which add more character to what's being said. Cultural notes and almost all of them have theme some karaoke.

The Lucky Star subs were a joy to watch becuase of these touches. [/quote]
[color:#556B2F]I have to say, there are valid points here. Although it's something little, changing the colors and adding in what cultural notes they can makes up for some of the translation and quality issues. Personally, I could care less what color my subtitles are - it's the acting that does the characterization for me - but some people dig that, and that's okay.
When you say "theme song karaoke", what do you mean? It's compatible with your karaoke machine or that it shows subtitles of the lyrics for you to sing along to? Most (if not all) DVD releases subtitle the songs as well as the show (Though I'm not sure whether it's a technical thing, but I get the flipping between Japanese and English, which is a tad odd.)
I know in my copy of Nerima Daikon Brothers, there was an option called "AD Vid-notes" that showed all sorts of cultural notes, explained the wordplay and such, and had little tidbits and pointers. It was hilarious to watch and helped me out with the Japanese dub, because that show is one big pun. I haven't explored a lot, but I would like to see this option on other DVDs as well; it certainly added to my experience and I'm glad they include it however they can.
If people want colored subtitles that badly, go for it and submit a query or two on the company websites. I'm all for something that seems insignificant but means a great deal to some people. I've had that before. (*coughapplesauce*)[/color]


[quote=H. Guderian]
Heeey, if you show a video of that panel, you're costing conventions money! Everyone who viewed the panel online now will not attend the convention and give money to the industry! Because downloads = DVD sales, right, In this case these panels are meant for the conventions and thus the con loses money![/quote]
[color:#556B2F]Actually, I'm not sure of the technicalities involved in this. I know he gave his permission for it to be posted on Youtube, but did the con also need to provide consent? That's an interesting debate, but a little irrelevant and I'd rather stay on topic of how fansubs impact the industry (We can tackle the effect of convention organizations in a little bit).[/color]

[quote=H. Guderian]
You can't solve an entire industry slump by making
one half just feel guilty.
I believe there are a few people that won't buy their DVDs due to fansubs, yes. But I also believe its far negated by the ability for people to preveiw shows before watching. I tend to see all of a movie before I buy it, not just the opening. Smae with buying shows domestically.[/quote]
[color:#556B2F]That is entirely valid. I'm not saying the industry isn't being stupid or unable to do much about a lot of things, but I see that the fansubs are one thing that we as fans can effect. If the companies have their chance, they should market more, put out ads, and try to get more shows on networks (I know the reason I'm into anime is because I saw Chrono Crusade and Peacemaker on SHOtime - and I saw each show a few times over before ever buying the DVDs!) If they could get more shows out there, like the anime on AZN or CN, and broaden, they'd boom. There is a growing 'fan'base that would be happy to watch it on television were it more widely available. I believe someone mentioned a point along the lines of "if there were free streaming downloads of shows that came out promptly online, I'd sit through five minutes of ads for the convenience." Now that is a marketable idea for the anime companies. Regardless, you pay for your television service, you pay to get into the movie theater (and damn those tickets are getting more expensive) and it's not the same as the fansub distribution.
Watching a fansub is not the same as borrowing a friend's disc, even if you never intend to buy it. You're burning an illegal copy of a DVD that never existed from a 'friend' who doesn't own it. And millions of people can instantaneously steal that info as well. This niche industry relies chiefly on DVD sales, and if you weren't going to buy it anyway - actually borrow DVDs from friends. The point of charging for them in the first place is that people who don't pay for it shouldn't watch it. Read a book.[/color]
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Post by dokool » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:45 am

[quote=Amjam]When you say "theme song karaoke", what do you mean? It's compatible with your karaoke machine or that it shows subtitles of the lyrics for you to sing along to? Most (if not all) DVD releases subtitle the songs as well as the show (Though I'm not sure whether it's a technical thing, but I get the flipping between Japanese and English, which is a tad odd.)[/quote]

I think they're referring to the fansubs where the OP/ED lyrics are actually animated in some way, known as 'karaoke subs'.

[quote=Amjam]I know in my copy of Nerima Daikon Brothers, there was an option called "AD Vid-notes" that showed all sorts of cultural notes, explained the wordplay and such, and had little tidbits and pointers. It was hilarious to watch and helped me out with the Japanese dub, because that show is one big pun. I haven't explored a lot, but I would like to see this option on other DVDs as well; it certainly added to my experience and I'm glad they include it however they can.[/quote]

I believe Excel Saga made AD Vid-notes famous, and I loved them in that show. It's a HUGE shame they aren't used more often for MANY anime, not just the entrenched-cultural-reference comedies.

[quote=Amjam]If people want colored subtitles that badly, go for it and submit a query or two on the company websites. I'm all for something that seems insignificant but means a great deal to some people. I've had that before. (*coughapplesauce*)[/quote]

Actually I remember Dave Williams and a fan discussing this at ADV's AnimeNEXT panel in '04. The fan in question had brought up the point that he was partially colorblind and so the colored subtitles in fansubs were often unreadable. So, that's something to consider.

Although granted, these days with soft-subs (MKV format) you can actually change the font/color of the subs through your player so that's not as much of an issue.

The other matter is that the DVD standard for subtitles allows for 4 colors - alpha, black, a gray for shading, and either white/green/yellow/etc. So it's very hard to do the multiple-color thing with DVDs in their present form. I'm not sure if BluRay's standards are different.

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Post by NanamiAsagi » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:05 am

[quote=dokool]
[quote=Amjam]If people want colored subtitles that badly, go for it and submit a query or two on the company websites. I'm all for something that seems insignificant but means a great deal to some people. I've had that before. (*coughapplesauce*)[/quote]

Actually I remember Dave Williams and a fan discussing this at ADV's AnimeNEXT panel in '04. The fan in question had brought up the point that he was partially colorblind and so the colored subtitles in fansubs were often unreadable. So, that's something to consider.

Although granted, these days with soft-subs (MKV format) you can actually change the font/color of the subs through your player so that's not as much of an issue.

The other matter is that the DVD standard for subtitles allows for 4 colors - alpha, black, a gray for shading, and either white/green/yellow/etc. So it's very hard to do the multiple-color thing with DVDs in their present form. I'm not sure if BluRay's standards are different.[/quote]

Greg mentioned this in his panel; BluRay's supposed to have different standards, but I believe that they were not AS different as hoped.



Also if you like Excel Saga...watch these. I can't believe that this thread still has people denying that there's a problem or refusing to care about it.

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Post by dokool » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:16 am

[quote=NanamiAsagi]Also if you like Excel Saga...watch these. I can't believe that this thread still has people denying that there's a problem or refusing to care about it.[/quote]

Transcribe it and I'll read, I'm a busy man :p

As I alluded to earlier in this thread I take anything coming from anyone within the Japanese industry w/ a grain of salt given that their business practices are, on the whole, less than smart, and nobody seems willing to admit this fact. Japanese anime fans get shafted - when Bandai Visual released its pricing for Galaxy Angel and everyone flipped out, I'm not sure if people seemed to realize that's the norm here.

(now I'll put on my Media Studies cap, since American Otakudom was my thesis subject 2 years ago, and yet half of it needs to be rewritten to account for the changes in the industry but bear with me)

I see the problems in the industry as a case of polar opposites - the American industry, at the time of the boom, pushed too hard to expand too far and get as many new fans as they could, and on the way many companies picked up every show they could find, including everything outside of the 99% rule (whereas 99% of anything is crap - anime, music, movies, whatever). A few companies (Funimation comes to mind) seem to have been pretty smart about this. Others (ADV)... not so much.

Anyone notice how Funimation went from being 'The DBZ company with a lot of other random stuff like Grappler Baki that nobody cared about' to 'The company that landed FMA, Beck, Kodocha, One Piece, most of the new Gonzo stuff, Claymore, etc and is known for its incredible special edition releases', where ADV went from 'The company that had Excel Saga, Azumanga Daioh, Angelic Layer, Kaleido-star, etc etc etc' and needed line control for its industry panels, to 'The Evangelion company with a lot of other random stuff that fewer people care about?'

Conversely in Japan, the companies basically narrowed their aim to appeal to the Akiba-kei, because the otaku who post to 2chan all the time used to be the bread and butter consumers - they'll buy the $60-for-two-episodes DVDs, the merchandise, and everything else. They desperately, desperately wanted a miracle.

What they got Densha Otoko, and with it the popularization of Akihabara, the remodeling of a lot of the area to make it much more tourist-friendly, and with that came the disillusionment of all of the hardcore otaku who fled in droves. And now they have a core audience that's rapidly shrinking. How 'bout that. I lived in Tokyo in 2004 at the tail-end of the boom and the difference between Akihabara then and now is like night and day. It's depressing.



The ironic thing is that while the two industries basically screwed themselves over, the American industry actually succeeded in its goal of getting more fans into anime - at least if the numbers of attendees at anime conventions are any indication. Problem is they're watching everything on YouTube and through fansubs because everything is taking forever to be released.


Anyone who tells you that fansubs are bad for anime and should be abolished is basically denying history. Fansubs, either in VHS or digital form, are what got many, many, many people into anime. Saying that people should wait for their series to catch up (even if it would take several years at which point they'd be further behind) or buy the R2 or the Laserdisc if they want to see a show that hasn't been licensed is just naive. Laserdisc? Seriously?

Fansubs will continue to exist until the industry can give the consumers the alternative they're looking for, much like Apple did with the iTunes store - if I could pay $2.50 for an episode that had good resolution, multiple language tracks, and subtitles with a couple clicks? I'd do it, and I bet many others would as well. Why are we not discussing "what should the industry do to save itself?" rather than "What should we browbeat the fans into doing to save the industry?"


Also, let me throw out the apocalypse question for my finale - would the industry crashing be such a bad thing? I speak of course of the Japanese side - I think the American industry has it slightly more together and could survive a crash, but let's face it, a phoenix needs some ash before it can rise. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but who knows - maybe the consumers would benefit in the end. How's that for crazy talk.

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Post by Kiarrens » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:50 pm

[quote=dokool]Fansubs will continue to exist until the industry can give the consumers the alternative they're looking for, much like Apple did with the iTunes store - if I could pay $2.50 for an episode that had good resolution, multiple language tracks, and subtitles with a couple clicks? I'd do it, and I bet many others would as well. Why are we not discussing "what should the industry do to save itself?" rather than "What should we browbeat the fans into doing to save the industry?"
[/quote]
I'd buy it without even the multiple langauge tracks - subtitles would be enough for me.
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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:24 pm

[quote=Kiarrens][quote=dokool]Fansubs will continue to exist until the industry can give the consumers the alternative they're looking for, much like Apple did with the iTunes store - if I could pay $2.50 for an episode that had good resolution, multiple language tracks, and subtitles with a couple clicks? I'd do it, and I bet many others would as well. Why are we not discussing "what should the industry do to save itself?" rather than "What should we browbeat the fans into doing to save the industry?"
[/quote]
I'd buy it without even the multiple langauge tracks - subtitles would be enough for me.[/quote]

It's a big industry secret - but the specs for v2 of the HD formats (HDDVD and BlueRay) both had in them secret stipulations that essentially stated that there won't be any physical media on the discs in the future and everything will be downloaded through DRMed components in set-top boxes. So these plans can be said to be already in the works.
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Post by genibane » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:39 pm

Sounds like it was a very interesting panel. I would have gone, but I am actually aware of the issue from Greg's LJ report on it all. It is very depressing.
I suppose I never thought it was so bad because as a fan, I have watched some fan subs, but I also spend a fortune on manga and anime.
But I'm also older and a lot of manga/anime fans are kids and I think of the kids at borders sitting on the floor and reading the manga instead of buying it and I suddenly understand...if people are ONLY watching things online and not buying, then yeah of course the industry will go broke :(
Since kids don't have to pay bills, car payments, student loans, rent, I think they don't have the same understanding of finance and that as much as an anime might make $$$ wise, it also costs a lot to make it.
They'll fight it, like they fought napster and probably do exactly what they did there. Come up with partipating companies and charge a reasonable fee for people to just download what they want to online. They should just go ahead and start making deals with itunes!

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Post by Seer » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:21 pm

[quote=H. Guderian]I don't think enough credit is given to those arguing about the market itself. Someone linked that Piracy & PC Gaming article, I trust you've all read that too. I watched greg's panel, I liked points, but it not the final answer.[/quote]

I'm glad SOMEONE looked at the link. ;]

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Post by Kiarrens » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:09 pm

[quote=Seer][quote=H. Guderian]I don't think enough credit is given to those arguing about the market itself. Someone linked that Piracy & PC Gaming article, I trust you've all read that too. I watched greg's panel, I liked points, but it not the final answer.[/quote]

I'm glad SOMEONE looked at the link. ;]
[/quote]
Are you assuming none of us have just because we didn't quote them or mention them? I assure you that's not the case.
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Post by jms » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:50 pm

[quote=Kiarrens][quote=Seer][quote=H. Guderian]I don't think enough credit is given to those arguing about the market itself. Someone linked that Piracy & PC Gaming article, I trust you've all read that too. I watched greg's panel, I liked points, but it not the final answer.[/quote]

I'm glad SOMEONE looked at the link. ;]
[/quote]
Are you assuming none of us have just because we didn't quote them or mention them? I assure you that's not the case.[/quote]Exactly, just because hearing Mr. Ayres ramble on about this and that didn't prove anything to me, doesn't mean I didn't watch, listen, and learn. Same with the articles, I read all that were linked.

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Post by Seer » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:07 am

[quote=jms][quote=Kiarrens][quote=Seer][quote=H. Guderian]I don't think enough credit is given to those arguing about the market itself. Someone linked that Piracy & PC Gaming article, I trust you've all read that too. I watched greg's panel, I liked points, but it not the final answer.[/quote]

I'm glad SOMEONE looked at the link. ;]
[/quote]
Are you assuming none of us have just because we didn't quote them or mention them? I assure you that's not the case.[/quote]Exactly, just because hearing Mr. Ayres ramble on about this and that didn't prove anything to me, doesn't mean I didn't watch, listen, and learn. Same with the articles, I read all that were linked.[/quote]

Oh, I made no assumption. I'm just shamelessly plugging and intentionally stirring a reaction. Especially Guderian, who is a friend. But your concerns are noted!

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Post by Gollum » Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:52 am

At Sakura-con's State of the Industry panel this past weekend they talked about pretty much this same thing. For those of you interested, you can listen to it here

It's a lot of the same stuff that Greg talked about, but there were a couple comments about what companies have in the works to try and fix the problems that allow fansubs to exist. For instance, they mention that Funimation is looking into releasing subbed episodes online within a week of it airing on Japanese TV for $1.99 per episode.

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Post by cybervid » Thu May 29, 2008 8:34 pm

Greg was at Ai-Kon last year, and I missed his fansub panel, but I'm kind of glad I did because I would have been up there with him, and we would have debated on it for the entire thing. I even challenged him afterwards, and he's accepted for this year. The problem is I've got a wedding that same weekend, and I'm in the part so I can't. -_- However, he knows this, and knows that I'm sending in my team with all my notes from other sites that I've researched. We've also been going at it back and forth through e-mails, with us basically at a draw. I'm waiting on his next e-mail as he's in the hospital right now for some reason. Something about getting banged up at the last con.

Anyways, I'm dropping anime. I've had it with this industry. I'm going stictly to manga because they don't jerk us around. Unlike anime, and their cliffhanger ending episodes that basically slap us in the face and go "Ha ha. If you had read the manga from the start, you wouldn't have wasted all your money for nothing and gotten a real ending instead of this 'To be continued...but never will be.' crap." I dare anyone to not come up with 20 series that haven't done that to us. I'll even given examples to help you out: Flame of Recca, Kaze no Stigma, Ranma 1/2, InuYasha, Gunsmith Cats, Riding Bean, Groove Adventure dance, World's Strongest Disciple Keniichi, Trigun, Trinity Blood. Or better yet, not come up with 5 series that didn't follow the manga, and were just all filler because they went past it, and skipped storyline. Again, I'll give examples: Claymore, Hellsing TV, Naruto, Fullmetal Alchemist.

Then there's series that came out how long ago, and they don't even license it all. Like Sailor Moon. Well I'm sure the fact that the creator came over here, and took it by force and said "You're never allowed to touch my series again" after she found out how much we butchered it by licensing it. Or Fighting Spirit and how we only got 75 of the 76 episodes and 1 of the 2 specials. Or Astro Boy from 1980 which doesn't have the kid Atlas episode because it showed a robot killing a human (but the Australian R2 version does). Or Virtua Fighter which only had 24 of 39 episodes licensed, but you can find the others on YouTube in Spanish. Well, I don't want Spanish. I can't understand it. License the whole damn thing. Or then there's any number of series and movies that got licensed and were "Unrated" when we first got them, but a couple of them came with Uncut ones years later (ie Neon Genesis Evangelion, Street Fighter II: The Animated Movie).

I put this to those who say that we're just worried about the wait. That crap. We can wait. We just want our money's worth. I've been an anime fan for 14 years now, and over that time I have spent $20,000 on DVDs and VHS. Yes, I have actually spent that much money in that amount of time. Makes me sick too. So, at what point is it fair for me to pay $30 for a DVD that has 3 episodes on it, that I can get for free and be of the same quality. Now I'm not talking about it being picture perfect and in Japanese. Now, I hate dubs. I really do, but if I download a fansubbed anime episode and it's got misspellings, missing words, grammar problems, punctuation missing, improper capitalization, etc. I've gotten what I've paid for. I can accept that. What's everyone else's excuse? Why is it that when I pay $30 a DVD, I get the same laid back quality and shabby misspellings, and missing words in a sentence, etc as I would for a DVD, even though I know I got it directly from a licensing company? I'm not getting what I paid for. If a fansub group can use spell check, and have someone go over it and edit it at least once, and they essentially do it for free...then surely someone who gets paid to do that kind of job can actually take pride in it. And what's up with FUNimation's fake widescreen bars on their Dragon Ball franchise. Get rid of them. They're not the least bit necessary. I want REAL widescreen, not FAKE.

Then there's anime that I wouldn't spit on so much as look at them. I'm a guy, so I can handle some ecchi. But I never would have imagined the crap that's coming out of Japan, and getting licensed just because the anime industry wants to make a quick dollar. Where's anime like Boys over Flowers, or Ai Yori Aoshi for quality? Not getting licensed. No one's willing to take a chance on them. What is getting licensed though? Gravion, Gravion Zwei, Girls Bravo, Ikki Tousen and soon Ikki Tousen: Dragon Destiny, Tenjo Tenge, and every other sure ecchi series available. $20 says that the ecchi version of Rosario+Vampire, which is NOTHING like the non-ecchi manga, will get licensed well before Hime-chan's Ribbon, or Aishiteruze Baby, or even Violinist of Hamelin.

Manga sales have doubled in the last year. Video games have increased in sales by 30%. Hentai has increased in sales over the past year, and that's still dealing with illegal downloads (and you can get a lot of hentai uncensored now so no excuses there). Anime has gone down in sales by 30%. Someone do the math, and grab a clue. Obviously someone's doing something right, but it's not looking like the regular anime industry is.

For crying out loud, I can find dubs that were on Cartoon Network or YTV easier than I can fansubs. And even then, I'll find DVD rips easier than fansubs too.

While I used to say that anime was superior to manga, and turned a blind eye to friends who tried to convince me otherwise, I've since reconsidered that position. I'm not buying anymore anime, and I'm not downloading anymore either. If the new Slayers series gets licensed and gets licensed WELL and PROPERLY, then maybe I'll contribute one last time.

If anyone wants to do something to help both fansubs AND the anime industry, they should nuke Crunchyroll. That site is a cancer that makes you pay for free stuff, and still manages to look legit.

That's my rant, and I'm glad to get it off of my chest. I'm sure Greg will have something to say to it as well when he gets out.

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Post by cybervid » Thu May 29, 2008 8:35 pm

[quote=Gollum]For instance, they mention that Funimation is looking into releasing subbed episodes online within a week of it airing on Japanese TV for $1.99 per episode.
[/quote]
That's only good if you live in the US. There's nothing set up for Canadians.

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Post by Gollum » Fri May 30, 2008 8:53 am

[quote=cybervid][quote=Gollum]For instance, they mention that Funimation is looking into releasing subbed episodes online within a week of it airing on Japanese TV for $1.99 per episode.
[/quote]
That's only good if you live in the US. There's nothing set up for Canadians.[/quote]

We don't know that. It's quite possible they will release something that works for Canadians. They haven't released any details about this yet.

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Post by cybervid » Fri May 30, 2008 11:23 am

[quote=Gollum][quote=cybervid][quote=Gollum]For instance, they mention that Funimation is looking into releasing subbed episodes online within a week of it airing on Japanese TV for $1.99 per episode.
[/quote]
That's only good if you live in the US. There's nothing set up for Canadians.[/quote]

We don't know that. It's quite possible they will release something that works for Canadians. They haven't released any details about this yet.[/quote]
Okay, then I will say "for now" they don't, but "maybe" they'll look into it. But until then, this is how it is:

FUNimation Entertainment has made all 12 episodes of the Black Blood Brothers supernatural adventure series available on its website as "download-to-own" videos. The episodes are only available with Japanese audio and English subtitles. Each episode costs US$1.99. The videos require the Microsoft Windows XP or Vista operation system with Windows Media Player 9 for digital rights management, and can only be downloaded from an Internet address in the United States.

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Post by Gollum » Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:00 am

[quote=cybervid][quote=Gollum][quote=cybervid][quote=Gollum]For instance, they mention that Funimation is looking into releasing subbed episodes online within a week of it airing on Japanese TV for $1.99 per episode.
[/quote]
That's only good if you live in the US. There's nothing set up for Canadians.[/quote]

We don't know that. It's quite possible they will release something that works for Canadians. They haven't released any details about this yet.[/quote]
Okay, then I will say "for now" they don't, but "maybe" they'll look into it. But until then, this is how it is:

FUNimation Entertainment has made all 12 episodes of the Black Blood Brothers supernatural adventure series available on its website as "download-to-own" videos. The episodes are only available with Japanese audio and English subtitles. Each episode costs US$1.99. The videos require the Microsoft Windows XP or Vista operation system with Windows Media Player 9 for digital rights management, and can only be downloaded from an Internet address in the United States.[/quote]

Yes, but Black Blood Brothers isn't still playing in Japan. My original post was pointing out that "Funimation is looking into releasing subbed episodes online within a week of it airing on Japanese TV for $1.99 per episode." We don't know what kind of distribution system they will use for that.

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Post by cybervid » Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:16 am

[quote=Gollum][quote=cybervid][quote=Gollum][quote=cybervid][quote=Gollum]For instance, they mention that Funimation is looking into releasing subbed episodes online within a week of it airing on Japanese TV for $1.99 per episode.
[/quote]
That's only good if you live in the US. There's nothing set up for Canadians.[/quote]

We don't know that. It's quite possible they will release something that works for Canadians. They haven't released any details about this yet.[/quote]
Okay, then I will say "for now" they don't, but "maybe" they'll look into it. But until then, this is how it is:

FUNimation Entertainment has made all 12 episodes of the Black Blood Brothers supernatural adventure series available on its website as "download-to-own" videos. The episodes are only available with Japanese audio and English subtitles. Each episode costs US$1.99. The videos require the Microsoft Windows XP or Vista operation system with Windows Media Player 9 for digital rights management, and can only be downloaded from an Internet address in the United States.[/quote]

Yes, but Black Blood Brothers isn't still playing in Japan. My original post was pointing out that "Funimation is looking into releasing subbed episodes online within a week of it airing on Japanese TV for $1.99 per episode." We don't know what kind of distribution system they will use for that. [/quote]
It doesn't matter. Available is available. And download is download. And making it available for download in the US only is still not going to stop people from using torrents everywhere else. It's like anything else American. If your IP address isn't US, you're not allowed access. It's just like NBC.com and it's ability to show you TV shows to Americans only.

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Post by Gollum » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:02 pm

[quote=cybervid][quote=Gollum]
Yes, but Black Blood Brothers isn't still playing in Japan. My original post was pointing out that "Funimation is looking into releasing subbed episodes online within a week of it airing on Japanese TV for $1.99 per episode." We don't know what kind of distribution system they will use for that. [/quote]
It doesn't matter. Available is available. And download is download. And making it available for download in the US only is still not going to stop people from using torrents everywhere else. It's like anything else American. If your IP address isn't US, you're not allowed access. It's just like NBC.com and it's ability to show you TV shows to Americans only.[/quote]

Correct, I'm not arguing that the current system isn't limited in how much it is helping. What I'm saying is that there are no details about what Funimation has planned for the future. I'm sure they are aware of the limitations in the current system. When they begin releasing things closer to the Japanese release date, they quite possibly could change this. In fact, I think it would be safe to assume that it will change because they will obviously be working a lot more closely with the original Japanese company. This should give them a lot more flexibility with where they are allowed to distribute, especially since the Japanese companies are as concerned about piracy as the American ones.

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Post by Tez » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:44 pm

It looks like Japan is finally starting to take steps. People have been arrested. Check out this link.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... re-program

And if this has already been added here, my apologies, I haven't been out to this forum for a long time and didn't want to go through myriad iterations just to check.

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Post by cybervid » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:14 pm

Well it looks like Bandai's doing a decent job. They're older series, but at least they've made it possible for both Canadian and US patrons to watch anime streamed AND it's subtitled.

https://www.dot-anime.us/streaming/index.html?mid=1

That's definitely going to help.

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Post by cybervid » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:17 pm

[quote=Tez]It looks like Japan is finally starting to take steps. People have been arrested. Check out this link.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... re-program

And if this has already been added here, my apologies, I haven't been out to this forum for a long time and didn't want to go through myriad iterations just to check.[/quote]
That's old news. The newer news is about they're changing their copyright laws to be closer to that of the US ones.
If they really want to crack down on bootlegs, lets see someone take down Crunchyroll once and for all, and have all the people who rip DVDs for torrent download, or upload dubs onto YouTube get arrested. Because obviously the US doesn't care nearly as much as Japan does, even though they say they do.

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Post by Hyunster » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:13 pm

Let me take a step back and remind some people a view from another perspective.

There was a bygone era when watching anime was actually a big part of an Anime convention. There was a time an anime club was almost completely about watching anime. Those were the times when people used 56K modem and fansubs had to be obtained by copying VHS. So any chance for communal anime viewing was actually a big deal.

But now the person running video programs at AnimeNext complains how people don't come to Anime Con to actually watch anime, and the video programs at Anime Cons are shrinking instead of expanding.


Here is another picture that's just as odd. One person here vehemently claims that Anime's lost revenue is due to the bad economy. However, the recent sucky economy hasn't stopped people from coming out in droves to spend their hard-earned cash on watching Ironman or Indiana Jones or Sex and the City. In fact, as described in Atlas Shrugged, gloomy times actually encourage people to spend money and time on escapist fantasies. Another example is that how people recently spent gazillion dollars on Grant Theft Auto 4.

And as Anime Boston showed, sucky economy hasn't stopped people from going to movies, buying DVDs, buying video games, or spending fortune going on making costumes, reserving hotels, traveling in droves and what not to Anime conventions. While in Japan more and more young people switch their interest from Anime/Manga to video games, it's clear that American interest in Anime hasn't hit its peak.

Yet revenue from Anime in the US has fallen off the cliff. I mean, sure, you are a crazy anime fan. You are willing to spend hundreds of dollars for a convention weekend and cosplay. But why would you spend your time actually watching anime at the con when you can watch whatever you want at home? Why spend money on buying Anime DVD when you can spend that money on parties and costumes and maybe video games (the last one being harder to pirate than anime itself)?

The decline of Japanese anime is actually not something new. Anime market in Japan is shrinking and money and talents are going to video games instead. But doesn't look like American fandom is helping, and I can't help but think internet fansubs are at least partially to blame.

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Post by cybervid » Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:31 pm

As I said before, the average person spends two hours a day playing video games any given week. Real players do it everyday of the week. Especially now when you have X360's little achievements program. (BTW, before anyone says I'm making this up, the proof is in the interviews done on the series Electric Playground.) It's proven that kids today are more ADD than they were back before. Video games are even used in schools, such as DDR, just to get kids to participate.

Then there's manga. You can start and stop reading it whenever you need to, and you can read it anywhere. You can't do that with anime. I know I can't. During my coffee breaks and lunch breaks, I can sift through a graphic novel. A lot cheaper than trying to save up to buy a portable DVD player, a plug-in, and headset so I can watch a DVD at work. Also less embarrassing to read a graphic novel at work too.

Anime is becoming passe. I don't watch anime at anime cons because there's nothing of interest playing at mine. Now that Greg's been there and said "no more fansubs are to be played" at ours, we have to watch the same first three episodes that everyone's already seen. I don't know about you, but I can only watch eps 1-3 of Bleach, Ai Yori Aoshi, and Moon Phase so many times. But why watch anime when you have other things to do. I only watched anime at my first con eight years ago because that's all that was there. Now you have various VA interview panels, the Gothic Lolita Tea Party, cosplay contests, cosplay designer panels, the art room, the art auctions, the merchant's room, the AMV contest, how to make AMVs, the video games room (which always smells because no one showers), the live-action rooms, the tea ceremony, the anime RPG (dice based), the dances, concerts (fly in actual J-pop bands from Japan), how to make sushi panels, and anime idol singing contests (just like American Idol but you sing anime/j-pop songs). etc, etc, etc. At what point do you have time to watch anime? There's too much to do. I'm sorry, but you can only watch so much anime. When I got to a con from 3 PM Friday, and it lasts until 6 PM on Sunday, I'm not sitting down watching anime nonstop. My @$$ is going to be insanely sore.

Anime Cons have evolved. That's just the nature of things. Different things amuse us.

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Post by KitKat » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:51 am

I personally am more of a manga fan. Its so bad that I have three floor-to-celing bookcases of Manga in my house.

Though, Greg's pannel isn't just about fan subs. people chose to read scanlations online in stead of buying manga. Stealing from a mangaka is deplorable.
I buy the animes to the manga series' that I really love, like L'chevallier D'eon.
Keep in mind that somewhere between $100 a week for gas, car insurance, half the electric bill, half the gas bill and trying to save up for my own place with my boyfriend I still manage to buy all my manga, all my anime, go to more than one con a year, and never steal things online.

I get your point about poor products in anime, but there are also some amazing things out there worth buying (like anything Miazaki)that people still just download online. Just because you hold the philosophy doesn't mean everyone else does.

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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:30 pm

[quote=KitKat]Stealing[/quote]

I keep seeing this word and it just goes to show how brainwashed everyone has become. Theft involves 2 things.

1) Person A physically gains something.
2) Person B physically looses something.

What is being talked about in this context is not theft. Nothing is physically lost. One can't even legitimately claim loss of revenue without proof that revenue was going to be given - this is impossible to prove in most cases because it simply isn't the case.

What everyone is really angry about is that someone got enjoyment or entertainment out of someone else's work for free. It sounds really petty when you put it that way, so they don't. Entertainment, enjoyment, etc. aren't things that have fixed market values.

I respect anyone's views on the issues, but I absolutely hate the biased rhetoric thrown around like this. Theft is a 2-part thing, piracy is terror on the high seas. These very words are used to evoke strong emotion so it becomes about anger and resentment instead of facts and realities because that's all the industries have to work with. When you break it all down, nobody is going to fight for your side because you're getting angry over people enjoying themselves without you getting paid for it - that sounds selfish and cruel. Have your beliefs and ethics; stick to them if you have your pride, but can the rhetoric. It demeans everyone.
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Post by KitKat » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:31 pm

I understand that you cannot understand intellectual theft, but saying that calling it what it is is demeaning to anyone is foolish.
When someone digitally stole the transcripts for JK Rowling's Harry Potter series and put them up on the internet in an e-book for people to read before the release there was never a debate over weather or not it was theft, or weather or not there was possible loss of revenue.

As an Anime fan I don't support my peers downloading fansubs online, don't do it myself, and have gotten in my share of arguments over weather or not it is wrong. But the responsibility lies with the people putting it out there, and the companies in Japan are now starting to act back and sew for theft of their copyrighted intellectual property.

And nothing it petty about my being upset that my favorite artists are being put out of business because their work is available online so no one really has to buy it.

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Post by PatrickD » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:33 pm

[quote=BasharOfTheAges][quote=KitKat]Stealing[/quote]

I keep seeing this word and it just goes to show how brainwashed everyone has become. Theft involves 2 things.

1) Person A physically gains something.
2) Person B physically looses something.[/quote]
So you're saying it's okay for someone to take an AMV that you made and post it as their own because you are not physically losing anything?

Bashar, you should probably look up the definition of theft before just making your own. Theft, according to the American Heritage Dictionary, is "the act of stealing". Stealing is defined as "taking another person's property without permission." It's all rather simple.

When Person A takes a show and posts it online, they clearly do not have permission from Company B. As a result, that is stealing.
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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:29 pm

[quote=PatrickD][quote=BasharOfTheAges][quote=KitKat]Stealing[/quote]

I keep seeing this word and it just goes to show how brainwashed everyone has become. Theft involves 2 things.

1) Person A physically gains something.
2) Person B physically looses something.[/quote]
So you're saying it's okay for someone to take an AMV that you made and post it as their own because you are not physically losing anything?

Bashar, you should probably look up the definition of theft before just making your own. Theft, according to the American Heritage Dictionary, is "the act of stealing". Stealing is defined as "taking another person's property without permission." It's all rather simple.

When Person A takes a show and posts it online, they clearly do not have permission from Company B. As a result, that is stealing.[/quote]

It's not Stealing - It's copyright infringement. But Copyright infringement sounds too bureaucratic to make that punch that will resonate with the people.

I'm not saying it's okay, just that it's not theft. 1s and 0s are not physical. Splitting hairs? Yes, possibly, but it's the power of words that makes people passionate about their PoV. By taking those back, the discussion can be more about reason and logic than about passion and drama.
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Post by ShadowWolf » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:22 pm

"Stealing" your AMV wouldn't be copyright infringement as it's something that cannot be copyrighted, although, there's not much you could do about it, as it wasn't your "material" to begin with.

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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:08 pm

[quote=ShadowWolf]"Stealing" your AMV wouldn't be copyright infringement as it's something that cannot be copyrighted, although, there's not much you could do about it, as it wasn't your "material" to begin with.[/quote]
Lawrence Lessig would disagree, but that's neither here nor there. Patrick was just using the first bit as a bit of prodding to make me seem like I was contradicting myself - I wasn't responding to that, I was responding to the general topic at hand.
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Post by Hyunster » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:24 pm

Here is an important article worth reading. It's not a short article but please read it to the end.

The Problem with Japanese Animation

If I were to summarize a key point in this article: I would say:

"Wage Condition of Anime animators worthy of Chinese Gulag."

Fan-artists who complain that they only made $500 during the convention at the artist alley: Well, guess what, that's what a young animator in Japan makes in a MONTH after 12-hour workdays.

Wage level of animators in Japan and South Korea (Where anime TV shows were typically made, not to mention America's own Simpsons and Family Guy.) are truly atrocious. Basically only those still living with parents can afford to be an animator. A few may become key animators and storyboard artists, but most end up just burning out and giving up.

No wonder young artists end up prefering to work for game companies. (In both Japan and South Korea) You still have to put 12-hour work days but at least things end up more finacially rewarding.

To be really honest, I am not actually such a big anime fan. I am willing to spend money AND time only on a few shows and movies that interest me, and most anime actually don't interest me that much. I frankly no longer have time to watch all even if provided free of charge. But what makes me upset is those who clearly have time and PASSION and MONEY to spend on a fan art of Cloud and Sephiroth kissing or whatever, yet couldn't care less if the original artists behind the shows get a dime or not.

Granted, much of artist-exploitation actually start with those who produce anime. (mainly Japanese TV executives.) There IS an exploitative side to the Japanese culture (those with power and money entitled to exploit the weak, more so than other first world countries) and it's a shame that I hope that the country will correct in its future.
But the matter of fact is that the biggest exploiters above all are millions who exploit anime without paying.



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Post by KitKat » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:31 pm

One of the first lessons I had in my Business Law class in college was outlining what the law views as a theft.
Copyright Infringment and E-Crimes such as what is going on now are both considered theft under US law. Just because you feel that theft need be something physically taken doesn't mean that the law sees it differently, and that there is an IMPLIED loss of revenue when someone posts copyrighted material online for illegal download.

Afterall, they wouldn't copyright it if they didn't expect it to make money for them, nor would they copyright it if they didn't want to protect it from other people diverting or halting their sales by posting it online, such as fansubbers and scanlation sites.

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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:29 pm

Well, the law is the law - i'm not arguing that. When you have as much money as the motion picture or music industry, a politician or twenty in your pocket is almost expected. I won't go into the large tangential discussion on the difference between laws that have moral roots (like those to prevent murder, assault, etc.) and those that arise from corporate or personal interests - you probably had to study that ad nauseum in an ethics class. Legality doesn't change the discussion in the least (though in some countries, or in some places you might wind up dead for suggesting that a law is bad).
Justin Corriveau - Anime Boston Fan Creations Staff 2016-2018
Sakura-Con AMV Room Staff - 2013-2014
Another Anime Convention AMV Contest Coordinator 2008-2016

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