Japanese Rock Panel

salsababy2889 · Post by **salsababy2889** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:39 pm

[color:purple]My two friends and I plan on running a J-Rock panel. I want to see how many people are interested in this and if you have any suggestions on what we should talk about/show, bands in particular you want to hear about/learn about, etc.

We also plan on buying some J-Rock CDs and little things, so feel free to give suggestions on that as well 8D

So far, the list of bands/artist we want to talk about are:

-The GazettE
-Alice Nine
-Gackt
-L'arc~en~Ciel/Hyde
-Dir en Grey
-Miyavi
-Versailles
-LM.C
-X-Japan/Hide
-Girugamesh

We've based these bands/artists on the different types of genres of J-Rock as well as being influential in J-Rock. However, these are not set, but rather what we came up with off the top of our heads. Tell us whether you want to hear these bands, if you don't, and any other bands we should add to this list.

We will take all suggestions in to consideration![/color]

BlackSunRising · Post by **BlackSunRising** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:53 pm

You can cover a little bit about some of the "known" J-Rock bands like L'Arc~En~Ciel (one of my favorites), Asian Kung-Fu Generation, Maximum the Hormone (that might be more J-Metal?)

Personally, I love 2 J-Rock bands called B'z and Parfait.

KitKat · Post by **KitKat** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:18 am

I'm personally a huge Phantasmagoria fan, but no matter what I'll deffinatly try to come to this panel if you have it. J-rock is one of the top genras on my playlist. =)

salsababy2889 · Post by **salsababy2889** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:29 am

[color:purple]I am a fan of Phantasmagoria as well, and we're trying to talk about as many different bands as well, but obviously we can only cover so much in one hour D: Still, I'll try to cover them as well.

Glad you're interested in coming~! <333[/color]

MandaPandaGSC13 · Post by **MandaPandaGSC13** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:56 am

I'm a big fan of B'z and Flow.

If B'z was on the list, I'd totally go. XD Even if not, I'd still consider it if my friends are interested.

salsababy2889 · Post by **salsababy2889** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:06 pm

[color:purple]Well, it seems that there are already quite a few requests for B'z, so it looks like we'll be talking about them as well 83[/color]

Post by **CJ Gren** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:37 pm

As an FYI, I have run a J-Rock panel the last two years at AB and plan to return for my 3rd year.

Post by **Dragonmaster Lou** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:40 pm

Also, as a FYI, unless you really wow me with your application on your J-Rock panel (or any other panel, for that matter), I tend to lean towards awarding panels to those who have successfully done the same panel in the past. If it comes down to two J-Rock panels, I feel much safer going with the person who I know will do a good job than someone new.

However, you're perfectly free to try to cooperate with each other (if you so choose) to try to make sure all the topics you wish to cover are in fact covered.

salsababy2889 · Post by **salsababy2889** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:45 pm

[color:purple]Oh, well I didn't know that you ran it last year and/or that you were returning. I didn't see you post up a thread for this, and knowing how popular J-Rock is, I thought it would have been set up earlier than that, so I thought it was up for the taking... My mistake then ^^;

Well, if you send your application in, I'm sure you'll get the spot over me and my friends because of your seniority and reputation for running the panel, so best of luck with that :][/color]

Spyder Byte · Post by **Spyder Byte** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:52 pm

[color:gray]Other Panel member here. I'm looking forward to help running it, but if it turns out we don't get it, I'm also looking forward to attending. Either way, it's great to see so many people interested in learning about it/learning more about it. [/color]

Post by **CJ Gren** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:00 am

Its fine, I've had a lot of personal stuff that's kept me off the forums and to be quite honest, I've never done an interest thread because I know the interest is there. ;3

If you guys want to drop me a line about any ideas you may have, send me a private message or something.

salsababy2889 · Post by **salsababy2889** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:56 pm

[color:purple]Yeah, obviously the interest is there, I thought it'd just be good for people to get their opinions and suggestions out for bands since there's such a wide variety of JRock taste, so everyone should hear about at least one band they wanted to ^^

If we come up with anything, we'll message you and get those creative juices flowin' :][/color]

dokool · Post by **dokool** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:48 pm

I work in the Japanese music industry so I'm [strike]getting a kick out of this thread[/strike] not very amused that you're perpetuating such a narrow view of what "J-Rock" is.

The bands you listed are all viz-kei; they may be different types within viz-kei but that's really it. Where's the rock? Where's the punk? Where's the shoegazer emo? It's a good list of bands whose members all wear makeup and dress in feminine black clothing, but there's not any variety to be seen.

Hell, put me in front of a mic and I'll ramble about the indie/punk scene here for an hour or two. These are bands that can sell out arenas and draw crowds of 50,000+ at festival shows but are barely known in the US. Sure, I might only get 10-15 people who care but at least we can have a discussion about something different when it comes to Japanese music.

Spyder Byte · Post by **Spyder Byte** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:56 am

[color:gray]I would like to initiate rebuttal with a simple comment on your approach to the matter: You didn't have to use such a condescending tone to get your point across. It's great that you work in the Industry, but that doesn't mean you have a right to make people feel lesser than you.

Now, moving on to the real point. This thread is new and not finite. The bands listed above are not written in stone. We don't even know if we're actually doing that panel, though I personally have no problem collaborating with someone outside my friends. The reason for what you call a "narrow view of J-rock" is that we are appealing to a United States audience. This is a U.S. con where primarily people from the states attend, therefore we are appealing to people outside of the culture. They would probably want to know about bands that, if they enjoyed them, they would feasibly be able to see somewhere in their immediate area and also have more free access to their music. It's basic business, really; knowing your audience.

This doesn't mean that we're not going to offer information on lesser known bands. We were just trying to establish some ground, see what people know about what they don't know about. If you have any suggestions, great! Throw them in here. Who ever is doing the panel, I'm sure, would be more than happy to look into them and add them to the repertoire.[/color]

salsababy2889 · Post by **salsababy2889** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:41 am

[color:purple]I must agree with Spyder... I'd like to think that I am quite knowledgeable when it comes to JRock, but there's a line between being knowledgeable and being condescending...

I understand that you work in the Japanese music industry (which I think is pretty amazing), and you get to experience all the bands and genres that you do, but realize that you're probably going to be one of the few people at the con (if not the only person) who's had that experience... I think it's safe to say that everyone attending the panel won't have had the exposure that you've had, so your definition of "JRock" is different from theirs, so to judge the rest of us while you stand up on your pedestal doesn't make us feel any better, nor does it solve the issue at hand.

I listen to a wide variety of JRock yet I'm the biggest contributor to that "predominantly viz-kei" list, as you so like to think of it as, so your attack is pretty much a direct attack on me, whether you meant this or not. I have been to enough concerts and JRock panels, read enough blogs and forum threads, and talked enough to JRock fans and enthusiastics to have a rather good grip on the "JRock pulse," at least in my mind. Let's face it, the bands that people here can get a hold of (for the most part) are either hard-core rock like Dir en Grey or Visual Kei bands, so this is what they become accustomed to listening to and enjoying, while seeking out bands similar to what they already know. Again, like Spyder said, we're trying to appeal to their tastes and yet still get enough "new stuff" in that they are not sheltered in their little (or not so little) bubble of the JRock they know.

The band list isn't set (not even close) but we have to take in to consideration people's requests and what we suspect that they will want to hear about. You've already seen that several people here are like, "I'll totally come if you talk about -insert band name here-" so should we ignore them on the basis that it's a known band? Especially if more than one person wants to hear about them?

And please don't doubt me when I say that I listen to a lot of JRock bands in a lot of different genres, but as much as I love each band that I have in my music library, it's not like I expect everyone to know all of them nor do I expect them to not be familiar with them. I wish I could talk about every band, even those I don't listen to, but this panel is going to be an hour long or whatever, and we just don't have the time. I think most people would rather go to a JRock panel with bands they've heard of/can relate to as well as a number of ones that they've never heard of, rather than sit there listening only about bands that they didn't request or don't know about.

Feel free to correct my points that I've brought up, and feel even freer to give suggestions on bands we should talk about or other ideas. I hate to sound like the pot calling the kettle black, so please forgive me if I myself have come off as condescending, and there was no offense meant to anything I said. I genuinely am jealous that you've had such opportunities in your life that I can only dream of having, and I will admit that your knowledge of JRock probably surpasses my own.[/color]

dokool · Post by **dokool** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:07 am

In your first post you claimed that you based your initial list off of the "different types of genres" in J-Rock when essentially they only cover one. This is like calling a list including Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, .hack, Persona, and Dragon Quest representative of "different types of videogame genres." So you shouldn't be surprised when somebody calls you on that.

I don't equate a band's popularity in either Japan or the US with whether or not they deserve to be covered in a "J-Rock" panel, but I think you do Japanese music a disservice by listing a bunch of VK artists and calling that representative of J-Rock as you clearly did in your original post. AB's musical guests have been pop idols, rock bands, and electropop bands - not a single VK act to be found - but none of these genres made it to your list.

I think we need to get over the whole "This is what US otaku can easily find in the dealers' room so we have to cater to that" mentality and embrace the same technology that helped anime spread so far in the first place; the internet. In an age of YouTube, LastFM, MySpace, and any number of the online music stores selling Japanese artists, it's not that hard to find anything you might looking for.

That's what J-Rock panels should embrace; the idea that Japanese music is a lot of things and that none of it is hard to find. I can think of a number of non-VK bands that have done tours in the US over the last few years, so the gap is narrowing a bit but the vicious cycle of a permanent comfort zone needs to be stopped for that to continue.

jessica · Post by **jessica** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:41 am

I wanted to say exactly what dokool said, but alas, I could not put it correctly without coming off as a condescending.

Personally, I'd be more inclined to come to said panel if you talk about the whole spectrum of JRock and not just Viz Kei and the like. I have a strong distaste for Viz Kei and a majority of the bands (Except Miyavi.. <3) you listed, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I think that's the problem here, the term JRock is supposed to be used as a broad term, but most people associate JRock with Viz Kei.

[quote=dokool]In an age of YouTube, LastFM, MySpace, and any number of the online music stores selling Japanese artists, it's not that hard to find anything you might looking for.[/quote]

I can actually second that -- I found Fastway's (<333) full length album on US Itunes. :thumbup:

salsababy2889 · Post by **salsababy2889** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:28 pm

[color:purple]Alright, you guys seem to be missing something though-- You're assuming all of this from my first post, which I will admit has some flaws in it and could have been worded better. I had originally intended to be able to go in and edit it over and over to add to the list, to edit it, etc. but it only let me edit it once and now I can't touch it, so I can't fix anything in it. What I had posted is not the same as what I would have had now if I had been able to go in and change it around, but the forums aren't allowing me to do so. I realize that a good number of those on the list are VK, but as time would have progressed, I would have added other bands that would have reached all over the spectrum of JRock, but again, due to how the first post is set up, I cannot go in and edit it over and over. It's a flawed first post and should only be taking a face value, not used against me for attacks, which is basically what this thread has become.

And again, Dokool, you seem to be attacking me (especially in your first line of the third paragraph) and that's A. Not helping with the issue and B. Puts me and my opinions down, which I don't take kindly to. Just because I like the GazettE, Alice Nine, and bands like that that are easily accessable, doesn't mean that we can't talk about them. A lot of people like those bands as well, and they're not the kind of band that "wears make up and looks good in dresses" as you so stereotypically put in your first comment on this thread. You can't deny that they've help to expand the exposure of JRock overseas not just to the US, as much as you would like to believe them to be "what a US otaku can easily find." Whatever, that's your thoughts on the matter, and you're entitled to your opinions as much as the next person.

And I agree I have found many bands on Youtube, online radios, etc. but it's harder (to a degree) to download them or even found out any information on them (at least reliable information) via the internet that isn't a site written in all Japanese. I don't turn my head away from the fact that the internet can provide music and information on these new bands, but we can't expect everyone to want to jump through the proverbial hoops in order to get this music.

As I have stated numerous times, I had not planned on ruling out any unknown bands out/not talking about them. On the contrary, I asked for your input. THIS IS WHAT THIS WHOLE THREAD IS ABOUT. We want people to suggest bands that aren't mainstream, we want people to ask to know more about bands that maybe don't tour over here, we want variety, and that's what this thread was set up for-- To put down our easily accessible music as our frame and then take people's and our own suggestions, and branch out to cover the JRock spectrum.

And Dokool, to prove that I don't get my music from the dealer's room, here's what I listen to-- Versailles, Lareine, Malice Mizer, Gazette, Phantasmagorâ€‹ia, Gackt, High and Mighty Color, Dir en Gray, Jeniva, Pierrot, Ayabie, Zwei, Miyavi, Alice Nine, Moi dix Mois, LM.C, An Cafe, Hizaki Grace Project, Kagrra, Due le Quartz, Hyde, Plastic Tree, D'EspairsRayâ€‹, MUCC, BLOOD, Girugamesh, Aural Vampire, Kozi, Hyde, L'arc~en~cieâ€‹l, 12012, DuelJewel, Distraught Overlord, X Japan, Sadie, Dolly, Vidoll, 176Biz, Mix Speakers Inc., Unsraw, UVERworld, Melt Banana, The Back Horn, Buck-Tick, Acid Black Cherry, Dangergang, Penicillin, Sex Machineguns,â€‹ Rentrer en Soi, Abingdon Boys School, Echostream, Baroque, Danger Gang, ExistTtrace, Dir en Grey, Envy, Glay, Maximum the Hormone, Nightmare, Kirito, SerialNumber, Lolita23Q, Ellegarden, Heidi, Kannivalism, Kozi, Lynch, Merry, -OZ-, Psycho le Cemu, Screw, SuG... I think that's good enough. So I'd like you to stop attacking my taste in JRock music when you can see that I listen to more than just Visual Kei.[/color]

jessica · Post by **jessica** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:15 pm

[quote=salsababy2889][color:purple]
... Echostream, Baroque, Danger Gang, ExistTtrace, Dir en Grey, Envy, Glay, Maximum the Hormone, Nightmare, Kirito, SerialNumber, Lolita23Q, Ellegarden, Heidi, Kannivalism, Kozi, Lynch, Merry, -OZ-, Psycho le Cemu, Screw, SuG....[/color][/quote]

Oh my. *looks at dokool*

Anyway, I was going to suggest you search Live Journal for that stuff, but you have one. When I was really into J-Music LJ was the place to go for information and things like that.

And from your list.. You better get on S.K.I.N.

Spyder Byte · Post by **Spyder Byte** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:38 pm

[quote=jessica][quote=salsababy2889][color:purple]
... Echostream, Baroque, Danger Gang, ExistTtrace, Dir en Grey, Envy, Glay, Maximum the Hormone, Nightmare, Kirito, SerialNumber, Lolita23Q, Ellegarden, Heidi, Kannivalism, Kozi, Lynch, Merry, -OZ-, Psycho le Cemu, Screw, SuG....[/color][/quote]

Oh my. *looks at dokool*

Anyway, I was going to suggest you search Live Journal for that stuff, but you have one. When I was really into J-Music LJ was the place to go for information and things like that.

And from your list.. You better get on S.K.I.N.

[/quote]

[color:gray]Thanks for not being a jerk and actually contributing to this thread. I don't know what happened here. It went from being a "these are some popular bands, what else do you want to hear about" to a "look how much more I know than you." If you don't like how you think this is supposedly being run, then suggest things. Don't just stomp around and preach.

I'm sorry, but I have a very low tolerance for those who toot their own horns, but refuse to offer advice on reorganization. *sigh*

ANYWAY, I'm hoping that within the panel, SOMEONE can touch on the major bands that brought the Jrock culture to the states in the first place, and then spread from there to lesser known bands. I'm a big fan of 90's rock, and I would love to find out more about bands that play in that sort of style, kinda like Blankey Jet City. Definitely want to find more groups like Danger Gang, High and Mighty Color, and Asian Kung Fu Gen that have that awesome punk/alternative feel to them. If you have suggestions, yay! Post them so that I can study up. It's never too late to learn more.

And yes, we will talk about S.K.I.N. most definitely.[/color]

KitKat · Post by **KitKat** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:20 pm

Can I just point out, please, that Lou has already said this panel probably won't make it in based on another j-rock panel that has run successfully in years past will also be applying?

I mean, why are you all arguing? Okay, some of you feel that you know more about J-rock or know better how to introduce non-anime-theme-playing bands to the greater community than other people. Why does that have to be an argument, and why are most of you being condesending to each other?

Just... stop it. You are all being quite silly at this point, this is the internet.

Spyder Byte · Post by **Spyder Byte** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:32 pm

[color:gray]I'm trying my best to be non-confrontational and return to the fact that this is a discussion for what people would want to see at the panel regardless of who runs it. There was a shred of hope that we may be at least considered for the panel, but I also understand that there's a certain comfort zone that's preferred to ensure success. Either way, whatever. Frankly, I'm finding it hard to care anymore WHO runs it, as long as I walk away going "oh, that's cool. I didn't know that."

We all know internet arguments go no where, but it's also not fair that Salsababy sits there and lets dokool trample her. :/ That's another matter in itself. Someone should close this thread, because it's deteriorated into nonsense.

And that's my last two cents.[/color]

salsababy2889 · Post by **salsababy2889** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:39 pm

[quote=jessica][quote=salsababy2889][color:purple]
... Echostream, Baroque, Danger Gang, ExistTtrace, Dir en Grey, Envy, Glay, Maximum the Hormone, Nightmare, Kirito, SerialNumber, Lolita23Q, Ellegarden, Heidi, Kannivalism, Kozi, Lynch, Merry, -OZ-, Psycho le Cemu, Screw, SuG....[/color][/quote]

Oh my. *looks at dokool*

Anyway, I was going to suggest you search Live Journal for that stuff, but you have one. When I was really into J-Music LJ was the place to go for information and things like that.

And from your list.. You better get on S.K.I.N.

[/quote]
Oh my...? What's wrong with Ellegarden? >> .< How Yoshiki and Miyavi are able to be in a band together I will never know~ (Serious Yoshiki is serious and Myv is ADD's poster child XD )

Jakkun · Post by **Jakkun** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:40 pm

This makes me cry.

Rather then argueing over this, why can't we just sign a peace treaty, and just help out with the thread? :'D yea? yea?
good idea?

:'DDDDD

@Dakool, you seem knowledgable, and pretty neat. But like Salsa said, the bands in the first thread weren't set in stone, and was looking for suggestions. And rather then putting things nicely, your approach seemed kinda rude. Though, I do admire the fact that you work with the jmusic bizzz.

@Salsa, perhaps you did take things personally? But I'd react the same way.

I'm trying so hard to just not bitch out at everyone, so yea.

Let's just suggest stuff, and be good ole buddies 83

salsababy2889 · Post by **salsababy2889** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:54 pm

[quote=KitKat]Can I just point out, please, that Lou has already said this panel probably won't make it in based on another j-rock panel that has run successfully in years past will also be applying?

I mean, why are you all arguing? Okay, some of you feel that you know more about J-rock or know better how to introduce non-anime-theme-playing bands to the greater community than other people. Why does that have to be an argument, and why are most of you being condesending to each other?

Just... stop it. You are all being quite silly at this point, this is the internet.[/quote]
This thread can continue even if my friends and I don't run the panel... This thread was meant for suggestions on what people want to hear about, regardless of who's running it. If CJ Gren runs this, they can look here to see who people want to hear about even if I was the one to create the thread.

Believe me, I didn't want this thread to turn in to an argument, but when I have people attacking me left and right, I am going to fight back, regardless, as much as I agree that internet fights are stupid. If you (or anyone else) thought I came off as condescending, I'm sorry; it was not my intention.

All in all, I agree with Spyder. I wanted to do this panel to be able to talk about something I love and since it looks likely that I won't be running it then I'm totally cool with attending the panel to learn more from whoever runs it. Either way, I want to enjoy JRock. There will always be people who know more about it than I do, which is something that Dokool likes to jump down my throat about but won't accept himself. Yet these later posts from people have just proved one of my friend's comments about how elitist JRock fans can be.

I'll still lurk around in this thread, see what people want to hear, post and what not, but unless I am blatantly attacked again, I'm dropping this argument.

YouTube · Post by **basharoftheages** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:35 pm

I'm loling at the rather calm, level headed discourse peppered with humorous barbs being likened to actual angry debate. Have you people never listened to talk radio or participated in a forum without heavy-handed moderation (no offense to the mods)? Reading people online is an art - and a good part of it is not going into the situation with prejudices or a feeling of victimization. I find it's best to not assume outright hostility unless you're getting line by line quoted replies heavily laced with insults and colorful language that goes on tangents about one's age/gender/race/orientation/mother/etc.

Debate is healthy and enlightens us all in many ways - complaining about its presence or absence is only useful for derailing topics and focusing attention away from the issues at hand / who may have been right or wrong / etc.

@ salsababy2889: nothing's wrong with Ellegarden - there's just a series of funny stories regarding dokool and them.

salsababy2889 · Post by **salsababy2889** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:00 pm

[quote=BasharOfTheAges]complaining about its presence or absence is only useful for derailing topics and focusing attention away from the issues at hand / who may have been right or wrong / etc.

@ salsababy2889: nothing's wrong with Ellegarden - there's just a series of funny stories regarding dokool and them.[/quote]
[color:purple]But doesn't you talking about the fact that when we talk about it only derails the topic only further derail the topic? Agh, it's a perpetuated cycle of nonsense! DX

Ah, I see... Well, I still like them nonetheless ^^;[/color]

dokool · Post by **dokool** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:14 pm

I think the fact that in the middle of all my quasi-trolling I made the biggest content-related suggestion in the thread and I'm getting BAWWWWWed at for it is hilarious in and of itself.

The first post (which everyone, even the OP can probably agree was poorly thought out and let's leave it at that) inspired me to present an opinion I've had every time I see a J-Rock Panel thread (that there seems to be a common but not necessarily universal J-Rock=VK bent at cons). You bawwed and rebutted, I made a counter-rebuttal, you bawwed some more.

VK bands appeal to con demographics and they are the most easily found music in dealer's rooms; I don't see anything wrong with that statement. You go into the dealer's room at bigger cons and you're going to find at least 2-3 music vendors; at AB this means a couple VK-centric shops and maybe that one indie electronic label that always shows up. I'm pretty sure I would have a heart attack and fall over if I found (for example) Ken Yokohama or KEMURI in a CD rack, and not just because of the price tag.

But non-VK bands are fighting their way in! MtH toured w/ the Murphys, The Cherry Coke$ toured with Flogging Molly (because the only thing better than Irish punk is Japanese Irish punk), 10-FEET apparently hit up a bunch of West Coast cities, TsuShiMaMire did another US tour, and the Pillows do their yearly American jaunt. But they need our help! Maybe we can start Non-VK Awareness Day, sell rubber bracelets like Livestrong :thumbup:

As a non-BAWWWable suggestion, why not make "where to get the music" part of the panel? At the AMV101 panel we have a guide that we print out and distribute to interested parties, a one-sheet page with a list of online music stores that sell Japanese music would go pretty far.

(and on a related note, apparently HearJapan sells Margaret_Drawers, which is about as random as you can get, or at least the most random band I've seen live being sold in the US. Which is proof that anything can be found!)

[quote=salsababy2889]Ah, I see... Well, I still like them nonetheless ^^;[/quote]

The "series of funny stories" is that Ellegarden's more or less the reason I moved to Japan and my life has basically been all downhill from there :p all of it culminating in the realization that punk kids in Japan are basically almost exactly like anime kids in the US but with way less of a social stigma attached.

Post by **CJ Gren** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:53 pm

Ok, this is getting really out of hand now.

I'll take everything said into consideration, however I am going to request that this topic get locked.

Post by Vu » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:58 pm

Requested and done.